Re: Episode 11 - 8/1 Finale - Discussion - Thread #2

[jlccaz]

Post-filming "Soviet history" is a top 3 recurring theme on the show. Before the F2's plane has left the runway, the Lead immediately starts rewriting history in his/her own mind (never in fact cared for Chantal or Ashley, or Bevin, or whomever). That becomes their reimagined truth....for themselves, and for their F1.

Some leads/F1's can never "get over" having met and dated on a reality tv competition show involving (of necessity) misdirection, duplicity, etc. That said, Ashley seems to have done a nice job of treating JP with lots of respect all along the way ... letting him be her "rock", telling him alone privately about the Bentley, Constantine, Ryan stuff. Of course, she probably didn't have communications access to Ben to tell him about Constantine and Ryan.

[Guest]

Wow... there's a lot of debate going on in this thread. I usually lurk, and rarely post, but I have time to kill so I'll throw in my two cents

What happens at the FRC is a breakup. Breakups are hard. Breakups on national tv? Ridiculously hard. Lets be real with ourselves, when we've been broken up with, do we always react with the best grace and tact? Heck no! We're being dumped!

Now, lets look at Ben and Ashley. Ashley is dumping Ben. Ben thinks he's getting engaged, jumps the gun and proposes. He laid it all out on the line for this girl, and he did it on national television. Thats rough enough in itself! Granted, he probably should've thought about the other man in this strange scenario, but if it were me in this situation, the only way I could make it thru would be to not think about the other girl thats vying for my mans heart and affection.

I personally think the way Ben reacted is normal. Perfectly normal. We all process things differently, and this is how Ben initially processes. I don't think he needs to be bashed on at all. I also think that they way Ashley handled things was normal. Breakups are hard on both the dumper and dumpee. Why don't we all remember that these people are real life humans, just like you and me, and lets cut them some slack!

I don't think any posters are actually bashing Ben, I know I'm not, I feel really badly that he thought he had it in the bag and was rejected on national TV. What I think ppl are upset about is that JP had a hissy fit and some ppl posted that he was dangerous, that he had jealousy and temper issues. Now we know that Ben has a bit of a temper too and it is going to be shown on national TV as well. IMO its a what goes around comes around type of thing. Neither of the F2 are perfect, all of us lose our tempers at times.

ITA, gurlbrit, we even used the same words "what goes around, comes around".

[Guest]

People are already bashing Ashley and ready to hang her because she let two GROWN MEN who LOVED HER propose to her - w/o regard for the circumstances that led up to it - let alone that the point of the guys getting to the end is to propose.

Ben is going to get hurt because he doesn't get picked. It shouldn't matter if he got down on one knee or not if he had the ring in his pocket. What if she stopped him from proposing and he felt his proposal may have changed her mind? People are so stuck on the act, they don't get the intention.

Great post.

[Guest]

Isn't there some way we can all just agree that the F2 is a sad situation--always has been, probably always will be--and stop trying to place blame?

I can agree with that. I do think we can put most of the blame on TPTB, though. I'll bet anything that they probably made Ben feel confident that he was the F1 and made JP doubt himself, especially after Ashley's sister didn't approve of him. They probably also convinced Ashley that there was no way Ben would propose.

Agree with both of you and appreciate your logic.

[Guest]

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[Guest]

I agree that we shouldn't be judging these people so absolutely based on what little we know so far. That said, the only points that I feel are worth mentioning-

1) Ben should not be criticized for his actions at FRC, nor should he be applauded for them, as if he did a great thing by "getting back" at Ashley for not handling the "dumping" with more finesse. Two wrongs do not make a right, so to speak.

2) I can't help but wonder how much criticism and rehashing of JP's temper issues we would be hearing from some people if the shoe were on the other foot.

3) It is highly likely that producer intervention and manipulation is largely responsible for this mess. Ashley was most likely told that she would be speaking first, Ben knew to wait, and to take her time and gather her thoughts, thus the stunned shock when Ben jumped the gun. OTOH, Ben was probably encouraged by producers to think Ashley was more into him than she was JP (and Ben's state of mind going on the show, being so emotionally closed off, was probably like striking pay dirt for the show psychologists, as far as finding susceptible victims to manipulate and brainwash), and was told that he needed to speak first at FRC, and drop to his knee for the proposal as quickly as possible. Then everybody stood back and waited for TV gold to unfold.

Ironcat, I'm riding your train today...you are right on the money!

You did it again, Ironcat. You keep reading my mind, how do you do that???

[ironcat]

I think what her head was telling her was that Ben was the expected choice, in that he was more like her and just like all the guys she'd dated in the past, and it's why she knew that her family would like him and be comfortable with him without question. But I don't believe she EVER felt it in her heart with Ben, which is why her interactions with him were always light and flirty, and lacking in serious passion; it just was never there. Maybe had JP not been on the show at all, something would have sparked with Ben, we'll never know. But IMO, opposite to how Ben apparently felt about it, he was really Ashley's safe choice, the one her head told her would be predictable and more of the same, and would probably involve far less heartbreak for her if it didn't work out; JP was the one who if she went for him, there'd be no turning back because it was all or nothing, and her life would be irrevocably changed. Hearing her family confirm that they found him to be too different, and in essence, too big a risk, brought those fears to the surface for her.

[noobsleuth]

JMO....

Ash is in love and she doesn't even realize it. Maybe she's never been in love before or maybe her and sis were being that dense. (sorry if you are lurking Ash ) But as soon as sis said something and Ash immediately breaks into tears says it all. She did this twice and got on the defensive and threw the B-word at her sister. Yes, I do think at this point that Ash had two choices and she needed to figure it out but sorry I really don't think Ben was one. It was JP or walk away alone. I simply cannot be convinced that someone she could only kiss closed mouth and not even notice until half way through the season was going to get engaged to her. It at least wouldn't have been believable to me anyway. CH said she had made her choice going into the finale and her sister threw her for a loop. It would have been hard for anyone (even Ben) to believe that a girl with her mind made up all of sudden pulls a 180 because of something her sister said... uhh no. I don't think that's how love works.
I love Ben... I find myself cupping my hands around his face on my computer because he's so darn precious but I don't see him and Ash ever getting engaged within the time constraints of this show. Maybe I'm just drunk of the kool-aid.

I do agree with those of you saying that Ben sincerely thought his proposal would be accepted. Someone told him this would be a good idea. Apparently he is quite confident while picking out rings. Me thinks someone was playing with his head big time. Whether it be production and or Ashley either way it's kinda sad.

[moonchild]

I agree that we shouldn't be judging these people so absolutely based on what little we know so far. That said, the only points that I feel are worth mentioning-

1) Ben should not be criticized for his actions at FRC, nor should he be applauded for them, as if he did a great thing by "getting back" at Ashley for not handling the "dumping" with more finesse. Two wrongs do not make a right, so to speak.

2) I can't help but wonder how much criticism and rehashing of JP's temper issues we would be hearing from some people if the shoe were on the other foot.

3) It is highly likely that producer intervention and manipulation is largely responsible for this mess. Ashley was most likely told that she would be speaking first, Ben knew to wait, and to take her time and gather her thoughts, thus the stunned shock when Ben jumped the gun. OTOH, Ben was probably encouraged by producers to think Ashley was more into him than she was JP (and Ben's state of mind going on the show, being so emotionally closed off, was probably like striking pay dirt for the show psychologists, as far as finding susceptible victims to manipulate and brainwash), and was told that he needed to speak first at FRC, and drop to his knee for the proposal as quickly as possible. Then everybody stood back and waited for TV gold to unfold.

Thanks, Ironcat, for keeping things in perspective, as usual. I so agree with the bolded. It seems that TPTB were trying desperately to create doubt to F1 even at the eleventh hour. To the average viewer, seeing Ben get down on one knee to propose, would give the impression that for that brief time, Ben was F1. What a shocker when he wasn't. I do have to say that the rush to judgment by some against Ashley, is surprising. The most informed viewers of how manipulated this show is, are on this board. Everyone on this board knows how manipulative and deceiving TPTB are. And everyone here knows that MF would throw his own mother under the bus for better ratings and the most shocking finale evah.

[ironcat]

JMO....

Ash is in love and she doesn't even realize it. Maybe she's never been in love before or maybe her and sis were being that dense. (sorry if you are lurking Ash ) But as soon as sis said something and Ash immediately breaks into tears says it all. She did this twice and got on the defensive and threw the B-word at her sister. Yes, I do think at this point that Ash had two choices and she needed to figure it out but sorry I really don't think Ben was one. It was JP or walk away alone. I simply cannot be convinced that someone she could only kiss closed mouth and not even notice until half way through the season was going to get engaged to her. It at least wouldn't have been believable to me anyway. CH said she had made her choice going into the finale and her sister threw her for a loop. It would have been hard for anyone (even Ben) to believe that a girl with her mind made up all of sudden pulls a 180 because of something her sister said... uhh no. I don't think that's how love works.
I love Ben... I find myself cupping my hands around his face on my computer because he's so darn precious but I don't see him and Ash ever getting engaged within the time constraints of this show. Maybe I'm just drunk of the kool-aid.

I do agree with those of you saying that Ben sincerely thought his proposal would be accepted. Someone told him this would be a good idea. Apparently he is quite confident while picking out rings. Me thinks someone was playing with his head big time. Whether it be production and or Ashley either way it's kinda sad.

I admit I have a hard time wrapping my brain around that as well, in this day and age. No sex, okay, but didn't Ben, who after seeing his, ahem, video, must have been around the block with women a few times, find it a little strange that he and Ash seemed to be reenacting a chaste love story from another era? Did he assume she wasn't having makeout sessions with any of the men? How do you really consider getting engaged to someone without first having a few good makeout sessions at least?

Never mind what you're drinking, that must've been some strong Bachelor koolaid Ben was drinking.

[clueless]

Ashley has the luxury of having 2 great guys.
To me, its obvious she's falling for JP but if she has another great guy to compare him to (ben), she's going to have to consider all the pros and cons for both.
She learned the hardway to use her head as well as her heart.
So yeah, its no surprise that she's already thought about what her sister is vocalizing.

I totally agree. That she had thought about it shows me how serious she was about the end result. Of course she would consider Ben. He seems to be a great guy. BUT the heart wants what the heart wants and to me I think JP did have her at hello it just took her time to see it because she didn't have the luxury of only considering one relationship while it was developing. Looking back on the show, my guess is she knows it too and that is why she said she was sorry she wasted so much time. JMO of course.

[cfck2222]

Ashley on the tvgrapevine preview: "You're saying everything that's in my head. And I know all of these things. I'm trying to figure it out, but you're just coming across like you're being such a *****."

As of Fiji, she's still figuring it out among 2 choices, each of which is tempting in its own way. JP is her top choice, but there's something very appealing to her /about Ben as well. Not a straight line, had me from hello season, IMO.

I actually don't think your interpolation of "among 2 choices" is accurate because the comment clearly comes in the context of a JP discussion. I think it was Ashley trying to figure out if she can make things work with JP outside of the bubble because of some real differences between them. As in, are those differences complementary or will they eventually become something unmanageable after the show? Which actually impresses me if she was thinking about that, however inarticulate Ashley is in those clips (recurring theme this season).

I don't think that, if she had decided the differences with JP would become unmanageable after the show, it necessarily means that Ashley would have chosen Ben F as her F1.

Post-filming "Soviet history" is a top 3 recurring theme on the show. Before the F2's plane has left the runway, the Lead immediately starts rewriting history in his/her own mind (never in fact cared for Chantal or Ashley, or Bevin, or whomever). That becomes their reimagined truth....for themselves, and for their F1.

Some leads/F1's can never "get over" having met and dated on a reality tv competition show involving (of necessity) misdirection, duplicity, etc. That said, Ashley seems to have done a nice job of treating JP with lots of respect all along the way ... letting him be her "rock", telling him alone privately about the Bentley, Constantine, Ryan stuff. Of course, she probably didn't have communications access to Ben to tell him about Constantine and Ryan.

I understand your point about revisionist history but if Ashley had wished to tell Ben F about Bent, Constantine, and Ryan then the communications access would have been set up. If she had asked, she would've been given the opportunity to take Ben F aside at the last episode's RC to talk with him privately about Constantine and Ryan. The pattern starting in Ep 6 of Ashley giving favored treatment to JP is too strong to ignore, in my opinion.

Nothing that I've seen on screen indicates to me that it was close between JP and Ben F where Ashley was concerned. Early on between Bent and JP? Yes but that was early and IMO the Bent factor after he left wasn't much (and was way exaggerated). I think she truly cared for Ben F but didn't take him seriously as a possible F1. What the previewed family talk is helping me to see is that there was a side to Ben F's personality the edit almost totally hid and it explains why Ashley brought him to the F2. He was a real F2 because of some real commonalities and not a default one as the edit showed.

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