Re: Episode 11 - 8/1 Finale - Discussion - Thread #2

[jlccaz]

I think a lot of them wish they could end it (Meredith, for sure, and probably Ali), but not only can't they, they have to pretend to be interested in the other guys, and act romantic with them and "make good TV". I'm sure after years of doing this, the producers have many ways of "coaxing" the leads to play along, and they often get themselves into trouble with fans because of it, by saying or doing things they would rather not have, but did in a need to cooperate. Meredith, with telling Matt she'd be "honored to be offered a ring" sure took crap for that, and I see now that Ashley will take crap for her "suggestive" line to Ben in the mud. Oh, well, JP will be her rock, as always. I think it's a worthwhile trade off, and suspect I'm not alone!

We are way too many seasons into this franchise to be playing "had me at hello" this season or any. Undeniable facts:

(1) Most seasons, F1 is not a long term or stable match for the lead. Break-up's most commonly announced within 6-8 weeks of airing of last episode.
(2) The process can be entertaining and suspenseful for viewers to watch play out in fantasy destinations, but that process is statistically the worst possible way to find a mate. The competition, the inherent deception, the meddling of professional meddlers, the gawking viewers, the conflicts between wanting to live a private life with someone who wants to be in the limelight, etc.

Sometimes the Lead is faking it with F2 and F3, but more often, there is genuine confusion, which is obvious to anyone (including F2) who watches, and hard to overcome. I think that's why the couples who made it uniformly speak of the relationship actually beginning when the show ended. Also, between the edit and the different comfort levels in sucking face in front of crew for network television, body language can be deceptive indicator. When it's there, it's there -- we can all see it's off the charts for her and JP. When it doesn't seem to be there, it might be there, but simply have occurred off camera or been left on the cutting room floor.

It's a legit question whether JP compliments Ashley's silliness or will tire of it. It's a legit question whether he will bounce back (a la Roberto) from all that was aired to the world. All in all, I'd say JP and Ashley have more going for them than most couples coming out of the franchise. Unlike Ed, he's probably sowed all his wild oats. They seem to have that bounce/glow that they really fell in love while filming. She can immediately relocate. New York is better than LA for receding into normal life. If she does another TV Gig, instead of pursuing dentistry, I give them 3-4 months.

[Cecilia]

Does the sister ever give a real reason as to why she didn't approve of JP at the ATFR? I mean it happens where your family or friends aren't all going to like the person you like, but she just doesn't seem to be able to articulate the "why"

I think she's just jealous.

[ironcat]

I think a lot of them wish they could end it (Meredith, for sure, and probably Ali), but not only can't they, they have to pretend to be interested in the other guys, and act romantic with them and "make good TV". I'm sure after years of doing this, the producers have many ways of "coaxing" the leads to play along, and they often get themselves into trouble with fans because of it, by saying or doing things they would rather not have, but did in a need to cooperate. Meredith, with telling Matt she'd be "honored to be offered a ring" sure took crap for that, and I see now that Ashley will take crap for her "suggestive" line to Ben in the mud. Oh, well, JP will be her rock, as always. I think it's a worthwhile trade off, and suspect I'm not alone!

We are way too many seasons into this franchise to be playing "had me at hello" this season or any. Undeniable facts:

(1) Most seasons, F1 is not a long term or stable match for the lead. Break-up's most commonly announced within 6-8 weeks of airing of last episode.
(2) The process can be entertaining and suspenseful for viewers to watch play out in fantasy destinations, but that process is statistically the worst possible way to find a mate. The competition, the inherent deception, the meddling of professional meddlers, the gawking viewers, the conflicts between wanting to live a private life with someone who wants to be in the limelight, etc.

Sometimes the Lead is faking it with F2 and F3, but more often, there is genuine confusion, which is obvious to anyone (including F2) who watches, and hard to overcome. I think that's why the couples who made it uniformly speak of the relationship actually beginning when the show ended. Also, between the edit and the different comfort levels in sucking face in front of crew for network television, body language can be deceptive indicator. When it's there, it's there -- we can all see it's off the charts for her and JP. When it doesn't seem to be there, it might be there, but simply have occurred off camera or been left on the cutting room floor.

It's a legit question whether JP compliments Ashley's silliness or will tire of it. It's a legit question whether he will bounce back (a la Roberto) from all that was aired to the world. All in all, I'd say JP and Ashley have more going for them than most couples coming out of the franchise. Unlike Ed, he's probably sowed all his wild oats. They seem to have that bounce/glow that they really fell in love while filming. She can immediately relocate. New York is better than LA for receding into normal life. If she does another TV Gig, instead of pursuing dentistry, I give them 3-4 months.

The Bachelorette has much better odds than the Bachelor (if this couple holds it will be 3 for 7 vs. 1 for 15, if we count Jason, not to mention only one time did a Bachelorette not last longer than 6-8 weeks post show with her chosen one), and I don't think that's mere coincidence, I think it has to do with how men and women operate when it comes to romance, love, attraction, etc. I do think more of the women leads make a connection earlier on with one guy (I never said "had me at hello", but maybe halfway through the shoot), and then have to play along until the end, than happens with the male leads. And I also think by nature, women have a harder time "playing along" with the physical part than do men, and therefore more likely require "coaxing" from the producers.

And yes, the key to the relationship working is whether the couple is willing to do the heavy lifting once seeing the light of day, but if they don't have a strong attraction to start with (which certainly has been the case on some of the Bachelor seasons past), the relationship is doomed fromt the start. This couple is certainly talking a good game so far, so we'll see how it goes.

[jlccaz]

I think a lot of them wish they could end it (Meredith, for sure, and probably Ali), but not only can't they, they have to pretend to be interested in the other guys, and act romantic with them and "make good TV". I'm sure after years of doing this, the producers have many ways of "coaxing" the leads to play along, and they often get themselves into trouble with fans because of it, by saying or doing things they would rather not have, but did in a need to cooperate. Meredith, with telling Matt she'd be "honored to be offered a ring" sure took crap for that, and I see now that Ashley will take crap for her "suggestive" line to Ben in the mud. Oh, well, JP will be her rock, as always. I think it's a worthwhile trade off, and suspect I'm not alone!

We are way too many seasons into this franchise to be playing "had me at hello" this season or any. Undeniable facts:

(1) Most seasons, F1 is not a long term or stable match for the lead. Break-up's most commonly announced within 6-8 weeks of airing of last episode.
(2) The process can be entertaining and suspenseful for viewers to watch play out in fantasy destinations, but that process is statistically the worst possible way to find a mate. The competition, the inherent deception, the meddling of professional meddlers, the gawking viewers, the conflicts between wanting to live a private life with someone who wants to be in the limelight, etc.

Sometimes the Lead is faking it with F2 and F3, but more often, there is genuine confusion, which is obvious to anyone (including F2) who watches, and hard to overcome. I think that's why the couples who made it uniformly speak of the relationship actually beginning when the show ended. Also, between the edit and the different comfort levels in sucking face in front of crew for network television, body language can be deceptive indicator. When it's there, it's there -- we can all see it's off the charts for her and JP. When it doesn't seem to be there, it might be there, but simply have occurred off camera or been left on the cutting room floor.

It's a legit question whether JP compliments Ashley's silliness or will tire of it. It's a legit question whether he will bounce back (a la Roberto) from all that was aired to the world. All in all, I'd say JP and Ashley have more going for them than most couples coming out of the franchise. Unlike Ed, he's probably sowed all his wild oats. They seem to have that bounce/glow that they really fell in love while filming. She can immediately relocate. New York is better than LA for receding into normal life. If she does another TV Gig, instead of pursuing dentistry, I give them 3-4 months.

The Bachelorette has much better odds than the Bachelor (if this couple holds it will be 3 for 7 vs. 1 for 15, if we count Jason, not to mention only one time did a Bachelorette not last longer than 6-8 weeks post show with her chosen one), and I don't think that's mere coincidence, I think it has to do with how men and women operate when it comes to romance, love, attraction, etc. I do think more of the women leads make a connection earlier on with one guy (I never said "had me at hello", but maybe halfway through the shoot), and then have to play along until the end, than happens with the male leads. And I also think by nature, women have a harder time "playing along" with the physical part than do men, and therefore more likely require "coaxing" from the producers.

And yes, the key to the relationship working is whether the couple is willing to do the heavy lifting once it sees the light of day, but if they don't have a strong attraction to start with (which certainly has been the case on some of the Bachelor seasons past), the relationship is doomed fromt the start. This couple is certainly talking a good game so far, so we'll see how it goes.

All by way of confirming it is an absurd means to identify a person to marry.

[northernviewer]

I'm camping for the weekend but had to come back home to pick up a few things I forgot and of course had to check the board. I watched Ben's video... well part of it cause it was so juvenile and gross .... and all I got to say is that Ashley dodged a bullet by not picking him. Knowing this about him is going to make it easier to see him getting dumped on Monday. Call me old, call me a prude... I don't care... but to me that's nasty for a guy his age. I think I pegged him right early in the season when I said that him a few other guys had a frat boy mentality. No wonder JP acted like he did in HK.... a man living with boys IMO.

Enjoy your weekend folks........ and if I get a chance I'll probably log on with my Blackberry later.... just can't stay away for finale weekend. Actually camping quite a few that are unspoiled fans of the show... can't wait to hear what they have to say

[Thomigirl]

Worked for Trista & Ryan

[Bhaka]

nativenewyorker, if everyone on this board were as gracious as you i would actually post more. if ben had realized he wasn't a shoe-in i'm sure he would have handled the rejection better, and i'm sure ash in no way was trying to hurt him when she froze up and allowed him to get down on bended knee. we're all human and we all make mistakes so it's wise not to cast blame. as i remember a wise man said let he who is without sin cast the first stone...

Thanks for your post, gabriele. I agree, both about NNY's graciousness and also about being reluctant to post.

Like Ashley, I don't always say things as well as I'd like. Rather than offending other posters, I often keep my opinions to myself. When I get invested in someone on TB, I really, really don't want to see him hurt. Then my reaction to those supporting "the other man" can be more defensive and less compassionate. I'd like to get past those feelings, because participating on this board is so much fun!

[Samantharose]

I think a lot of them wish they could end it (Meredith, for sure, and probably Ali), but not only can't they, they have to pretend to be interested in the other guys, and act romantic with them and "make good TV". I'm sure after years of doing this, the producers have many ways of "coaxing" the leads to play along, and they often get themselves into trouble with fans because of it, by saying or doing things they would rather not have, but did in a need to cooperate. Meredith, with telling Matt she'd be "honored to be offered a ring" sure took crap for that, and I see now that Ashley will take crap for her "suggestive" line to Ben in the mud. Oh, well, JP will be her rock, as always. I think it's a worthwhile trade off, and suspect I'm not alone!

We are way too many seasons into this franchise to be playing "had me at hello" this season or any. Undeniable facts:

(1) Most seasons, F1 is not a long term or stable match for the lead. Break-up's most commonly announced within 6-8 weeks of airing of last episode.
(2) The process can be entertaining and suspenseful for viewers to watch play out in fantasy destinations, but that process is statistically the worst possible way to find a mate. The competition, the inherent deception, the meddling of professional meddlers, the gawking viewers, the conflicts between wanting to live a private life with someone who wants to be in the limelight, etc.

Sometimes the Lead is faking it with F2 and F3, but more often, there is genuine confusion, which is obvious to anyone (including F2) who watches, and hard to overcome. I think that's why the couples who made it uniformly speak of the relationship actually beginning when the show ended. Also, between the edit and the different comfort levels in sucking face in front of crew for network television, body language can be deceptive indicator. When it's there, it's there -- we can all see it's off the charts for her and JP. When it doesn't seem to be there, it might be there, but simply have occurred off camera or been left on the cutting room floor.

It's a legit question whether JP compliments Ashley's silliness or will tire of it. It's a legit question whether he will bounce back (a la Roberto) from all that was aired to the world. All in all, I'd say JP and Ashley have more going for them than most couples coming out of the franchise. Unlike Ed, he's probably sowed all his wild oats. They seem to have that bounce/glow that they really fell in love while filming. She can immediately relocate. New York is better than LA for receding into normal life. If she does another TV Gig, instead of pursuing dentistry, I give them 3-4 months.

The Bachelorette has much better odds than the Bachelor (if this couple holds it will be 3 for 7 vs. 1 for 15, if we count Jason, not to mention only one time did a Bachelorette not last longer than 6-8 weeks post show with her chosen one), and I don't think that's mere coincidence, I think it has to do with how men and women operate when it comes to romance, love, attraction, etc. I do think more of the women leads make a connection earlier on with one guy (I never said "had me at hello", but maybe halfway through the shoot), and then have to play along until the end, than happens with the male leads. And I also think by nature, women have a harder time "playing along" with the physical part than do men, and therefore more likely require "coaxing" from the producers.

And yes, the key to the relationship working is whether the couple is willing to do the heavy lifting once seeing the light of day, but if they don't have a strong attraction to start with (which certainly has been the case on some of the Bachelor seasons past), the relationship is doomed fromt the start. This couple is certainly talking a good game so far, so we'll see how it goes.

Just looking at how open and honest they were with each other- talking everything out & reassuring each other is a big plus for long term success in my book! :Nod: JP comes across as very sincere and committed to her. I think it also helps that he came into this at a point in his life when he was ready for a committed relationship.

[JBF]

In regards to the mud bath and sun-tanning on the yacht... yes, Ashley is getting a bit too "personal" with Ben for comfort. However, nothing really "bad" happens. Much of it is talk and no action for the cameras. If Ben is convinced that he's the one, it is because he is just getting over his "walls" and certainly doesn't expect to be too-too intimate with her until the show is over.

Despite what we all think and Fleiss promotes, not every lead "consummates" with either final one or two before production wraps (although I'm a bit suspicious of "Jordash" here... ha ha ha). Ben has no clue whether or not JP is getting closed-mouth kisses and just body rubbings. WE see what happens under that umbrella, not the competing bachelors... which made Ryan's move back in Phuket so hysterically funny. Ryan just knew Ashley was soaked after her time with JP and that she was carried back by him.

I can only GUESS how all of the competing bachelors watching that "extended" Peak Tram scene on Monday will react...

One thing is for sure. Ashley wastes no time TELLING Jordan EVERYTHING. He is the first to know about Bentley, Dino and Ryan. I'm sure he has the Full Report on "how far" the Ben/Ash relationship went. If not, he is probably on speed-dial during each broadcast.

From the way this show appears to some of us, she selected for her Final Three Fantasy-suiting two guys with "walls" (one leaving early) and one for whom those walls had long since fallen...

Favorite line on Ben's date: I lost my flower! (She had painted an Ashley Flower with his elephant in Phuket.)

Then there was that funny flower pedal (or whatever that thing was) that landed on JP's head...

[Guest]

nativenewyorker, if everyone on this board were as gracious as you i would actually post more. if ben had realized he wasn't a shoe-in i'm sure he would have handled the rejection better, and i'm sure ash in no way was trying to hurt him when she froze up and allowed him to get down on bended knee. we're all human and we all make mistakes so it's wise not to cast blame. as i remember a wise man said let he who is without sin cast the first stone...

Thanks for your post, gabriele. I agree, both about NNY's graciousness and also about being reluctant to post.

Like Ashley, I don't always say things as well as I'd like. Rather than offending other posters, I often keep my opinions to myself. When I get invested in someone on TB, I really, really don't want to see him hurt. Then my reaction to those supporting "the other man" can be more defensive and less compassionate. I'd like to get past those feelings, because participating on this board is so much fun!

I understand exactly what you are saying BH. I did that last year with Chris L. I was so invested in his story. I was felt so bad for him when she let him go although I didn't think she was really good for him! I was very defensive afterwards when the bashers came forward (on other boards). It is hard to be quiet. This year I'm not so invested although I am pulling for JP. I get what you are saying though.

[ironcat]

I agree that I see much more firm evidence that this relationship is starting on more solid ground than many of the others, from both what we have seen on the show (the best communication skills of pretty much any couple so far in the franchise, and in a season where there was a lot of need for communication, not to mention undeniable chemistry) and off the show (JP's vlog defending Ashley showed a level of understanding and empathy towards her that was heartwarming). They may have different personalities, but so do many successful couples, and for some people, that's a plus, not a minus; they seem to have a lot of commonalities and shared goals/values as well IMO. And unlike last season, there are no extra major hurdles to overcome this time, and they have apparently already worked out a plan to go forward as a couple, also unlike last season.

Whether JP will tire of Ashley's silliness or not, I can't say, but he sure managed to sit through over 2 months watching it on TV and appears to be more in love with her than ever. I sense he knows what he's in for with her, and welcomes it. It also doesn't appear that he was fazed in any major way about anything he saw on the show regarding other guys, not that IMO there was much to see. But again, only time will tell, and if they don't ultimately make it, it may be because of something entirely unrelated to having begun this relationship on a cheesy reality show.

[LibbyBell]

I agree that I see much more firm evidence that this relationship is starting on more solid ground than many of the others, from both what we have seen on the show (the best communication skills of pretty much any couple so far in the franchise, and in a season where there was a lot of need for communication, not to mention undeniable chemistry) and off the show (JP's vlog defending Ashley showed a level of understanding and empathy towards her that was heartwarming). They may have different personalities, but so do many successful couples, and for some people, that's a plus, not a minus; they seem to have a lot of commonalities and shared goals/values as well IMO. And unlike last season, there are no extra major hurdles to overcome this time, and they have apparently already worked out a plan to go forward as a couple, also unlike last season.

Whether JP will tire of Ashley's silliness or not, I can't say, but he sure managed to sit through over 2 months watching it on TV and appears to be more in love with her than ever. I sense he knows what he's in for with her, and welcomes it. It also doesn't appear that he was fazed in any major way about anything he saw on the show regarding other guys, not that IMO there was much to see. But again, only time will tell, and if they don't ultimately make it, it may be because of something entirely unrelated to having begun this relationship on a cheesy reality show.

I couldn't agree more, ironcat!!!

[Sponsored content]