Re: Episode 11 - 8/1 Finale - Discussion - Thread #2

[onlyme]

He was. He's an exception along with Emily and someone else I can't remember. Most F1's are on the right. Plus it didn't matter which side Roberto was on, since Chris L. was never at the FRC.

Man I wasn't watching Brad and Emily that closely. I had to go back and check. You are right, Emily was on the left. The other two are Tessa and Shayne. I believe those are the only ladies to be on the left. I need to go and look at the guys. They haven't been as consistent.

[noobsleuth]

JMO....

Ash is in love and she doesn't even realize it. Maybe she's never been in love before or maybe her and sis were being that dense. (sorry if you are lurking Ash ) But as soon as sis said something and Ash immediately breaks into tears says it all. She did this twice and got on the defensive and threw the B-word at her sister. Yes, I do think at this point that Ash had two choices and she needed to figure it out but sorry I really don't think Ben was one. It was JP or walk away alone. I simply cannot be convinced that someone she could only kiss closed mouth and not even notice until half way through the season was going to get engaged to her. It at least wouldn't have been believable to me anyway. CH said she had made her choice going into the finale and her sister threw her for a loop. It would have been hard for anyone (even Ben) to believe that a girl with her mind made up all of sudden pulls a 180 because of something her sister said... uhh no. I don't think that's how love works.
I love Ben... I find myself cupping my hands around his face on my computer because he's so darn precious but I don't see him and Ash ever getting engaged within the time constraints of this show. Maybe I'm just drunk of the kool-aid.

I do agree with those of you saying that Ben sincerely thought his proposal would be accepted. Someone told him this would be a good idea. Apparently he is quite confident while picking out rings. Me thinks someone was playing with his head big time. Whether it be production and or Ashley either way it's kinda sad.

Well, I had a hard time wrapping my head around it during Trista's Season. Her kisses with Ryan were mostly pecks, especially during her FRC. That is why Ashley's pecks with Ben didn't really matter that much to me.

Trista's season was a long time ago, but I must have watched a different show than you did. I know Ryan didn't kiss her until later in the season, HTDs possibly, but I recall some serious makeout sessions between them, particularly one in a hot tub that left Ryan a little, shall we say, uncomfortable and not appropriate for family viewing.

If it makes you feel better to say that Ben towered over CH, and point out that JP is shorter than CH, have at it. Not worth quibbling about and doesn't change which one got the girl.

That would be me that said it. It was an observation. We were comparing heights this season and it surprised me at how different they look in these pics. I have no idea why that would offend anyone.

Since there were comments about pecks with Ben, what do you all think about Ashley's comment to Ben in the mud bath about wishing she could reach lower? I thought it was very suggestive and surprised me since she knew she'd be getting engaged to another guy in a day or two. Perhaps Ben had good reason to think he was "the one". I think there was possibly a lot more chemistry with Ben than people think.

Well since I wrote the original post I'll bite.... First of all I wanna point out that I didn't quote anyone when I wrote this because I wasn't trying to start anything or be argumentative. I was just adding my 2 cents. I don't think it disrespected anyone in anyway...at least not any posters. :hidingchair

Yes, there could have more chemistry with Ben then what was shown. We knew she thought he was hot and good grief he made it to F2. I wasn't trying to prove that Ashley didn't like Ben or anything like that. I was trying to say (but I guess failed miserably) that when CH and Ash are both saying her mind was made up going into the finale that I don't think a snap judgment by her sister is going to convince Ashley to not to choose JP but then do a 180 and choose Ben. According to CH her mind was made up. The sister threw her for a loop because she didn't approve of JP. It was JP or no one. I don't understand how it would be believable to be in love with JP and then because her sister says one thing she falls out of love with JP and decides she's in love with Ben. I don't think people have that much control over who they can love.. not real love anyway. Again this just my opinion. If no one agrees... no worries we all have different points of view based on different life experiences. I don't take disagreement personally... I am not JP or Ashley. LOL

[pbmax]

JMO....

Ash is in love and she doesn't even realize it. Maybe she's never been in love before or maybe her and sis were being that dense. (sorry if you are lurking Ash ) But as soon as sis said something and Ash immediately breaks into tears says it all. She did this twice and got on the defensive and threw the B-word at her sister. Yes, I do think at this point that Ash had two choices and she needed to figure it out but sorry I really don't think Ben was one. It was JP or walk away alone. I simply cannot be convinced that someone she could only kiss closed mouth and not even notice until half way through the season was going to get engaged to her. It at least wouldn't have been believable to me anyway. CH said she had made her choice going into the finale and her sister threw her for a loop. It would have been hard for anyone (even Ben) to believe that a girl with her mind made up all of sudden pulls a 180 because of something her sister said... uhh no. I don't think that's how love works.
I love Ben... I find myself cupping my hands around his face on my computer because he's so darn precious but I don't see him and Ash ever getting engaged within the time constraints of this show. Maybe I'm just drunk of the kool-aid.

I do agree with those of you saying that Ben sincerely thought his proposal would be accepted. Someone told him this would be a good idea. Apparently he is quite confident while picking out rings. Me thinks someone was playing with his head big time. Whether it be production and or Ashley either way it's kinda sad.

Well, I had a hard time wrapping my head around it during Trista's Season. Her kisses with Ryan were mostly pecks, especially during her FRC. That is why Ashley's pecks with Ben didn't really matter that much to me.

Trista's season was a long time ago, but I must have watched a different show than you did. I know Ryan didn't kiss her until later in the season, HTDs possibly, but I recall some serious makeout sessions between them, particularly one in a hot tub that left Ryan a little, shall we say, uncomfortable and not appropriate for family viewing.

If it makes you feel better to say that Ben towered over CH, and point out that JP is shorter than CH, have at it. Not worth quibbling about and doesn't change which one got the girl.

That would be me that said it. It was an observation. We were comparing heights this season and it surprised me at how different they look in these pics. I have no idea why that would offend anyone.

Since there were comments about pecks with Ben, what do you all think about Ashley's comment to Ben in the mud bath about wishing she could reach lower? I thought it was very suggestive and surprised me since she knew she'd be getting engaged to another guy in a day or two. Perhaps Ben had good reason to think he was "the one". I think there was possibly a lot more chemistry with Ben than people think.

Everybody knows my feelings on this season. There were a couple of times she made me think maybe Ben.

[ironcat]

JMO....

Ash is in love and she doesn't even realize it. Maybe she's never been in love before or maybe her and sis were being that dense. (sorry if you are lurking Ash ) But as soon as sis said something and Ash immediately breaks into tears says it all. She did this twice and got on the defensive and threw the B-word at her sister. Yes, I do think at this point that Ash had two choices and she needed to figure it out but sorry I really don't think Ben was one. It was JP or walk away alone. I simply cannot be convinced that someone she could only kiss closed mouth and not even notice until half way through the season was going to get engaged to her. It at least wouldn't have been believable to me anyway. CH said she had made her choice going into the finale and her sister threw her for a loop. It would have been hard for anyone (even Ben) to believe that a girl with her mind made up all of sudden pulls a 180 because of something her sister said... uhh no. I don't think that's how love works.
I love Ben... I find myself cupping my hands around his face on my computer because he's so darn precious but I don't see him and Ash ever getting engaged within the time constraints of this show. Maybe I'm just drunk of the kool-aid.

I do agree with those of you saying that Ben sincerely thought his proposal would be accepted. Someone told him this would be a good idea. Apparently he is quite confident while picking out rings. Me thinks someone was playing with his head big time. Whether it be production and or Ashley either way it's kinda sad.

Well, I had a hard time wrapping my head around it during Trista's Season. Her kisses with Ryan were mostly pecks, especially during her FRC. That is why Ashley's pecks with Ben didn't really matter that much to me.

Trista's season was a long time ago, but I must have watched a different show than you did. I know Ryan didn't kiss her until later in the season, HTDs possibly, but I recall some serious makeout sessions between them, particularly one in a hot tub that left Ryan a little, shall we say, uncomfortable and not appropriate for family viewing.

If it makes you feel better to say that Ben towered over CH, and point out that JP is shorter than CH, have at it. Not worth quibbling about and doesn't change which one got the girl.

That would be me that said it. It was an observation. We were comparing heights this season and it surprised me at how different they look in these pics. I have no idea why that would offend anyone.

Since there were comments about pecks with Ben, what do you all think about Ashley's comment to Ben in the mud bath about wishing she could reach lower? I thought it was very suggestive and surprised me since she knew she'd be getting engaged to another guy in a day or two. Perhaps Ben had good reason to think he was "the one". I think there was possibly a lot more chemistry with Ben than people think.

It didn't offend me at all, I thought it was funny, because to me he looked a couple of inches taller, not a head taller, which would be how I would describe towering over someone. And now I've quibbled when I said I wouldn't. Oh, well.

I hear Ashley say suggestive words to Ben here and there, like that comment in the mud, but I never hear anything suggestive in her tone of voice or in her accompanying body language that correlates with her words. It makes me wonder how much producer prompting is going on, to make it seem like there is more chemistry between them than what Ashley is really feeling. I honestly got the same vibe from the sunscreen application scene. Very suggestive action on her part, but she sure didn't look to me like she was getting very turned on by doing it. And yes, Ben may very well have misread her body language, due in part to naivete about the show's inner workings, not the least of which may have been a producer in his ear assuring him he "had this".

[GrahamGal]

I have been trying to be as respectful as possible towards both Ben and his fans. It's never easy to be F2 and it hurts to see it when you are a fan of that person. I have said that I will wait until I see it all play out before I make any judgements. I have some questions in my mind based on the dialogue between Ben and Ashley at the FRC. Ben did interrupt Ashley and did not initially allow her to tell him what she intended to say. That indicates to me that Ben had a clear intention of proposing. How Ashley reacts and what she does as he talks to her and then goes down on one knee to propose, will be the thing I am looking for when I see it. Ashley could well have been so taken aback that she literally froze right there. She might not have known how to react or what to say. It's easy for someone to say she should have done this or should have done that. Once I see how it all happens, then I will be able to have some reasonable opinion about all of it. For now I am just going to wait and see.

As far as what led up to this, the other things that stood out to me is that Ben apparently never considered the possibility that he might be rejected. I think that is one big reason why he ends up taking it so hard. If you think it's a done deal and then it all blows up in your face, that would make his reaction seem quite understandable. We have never seen Ben get angry, but this is the worst of all possible situations. JP had a very different process. He thought it all out and weighed the risks versus the rewards. If you have ever been in therapy and are dealing with something that scares you to the point that you can't handle it, many times the therapist or counselor will ask you - what is the worst thing that could happen. That enables you to look at it and realize that it's not the end of the world. Then you can move forward. I think this is what JP did. He told Ashley on their HTD - someone's heart will be broken at the end. So he did face the worst case scenario. He knew that there was a chance he would have his heart broken again. However, he already faced this in his life when his two and a half year relationship with the woman he loved deeply ended. He also knew that even though it was a terrible thing, he managed to survive. I think this was the key to how JP was able to get through this season and keep himself together. He discussed it with his brother at the HTD. His brother asked him point blank if he was prepared to accept the possibility that he might be heart broken again. He told him that he was prepared to take that risk because of his feelings for Ashley. JP didn't want to walk away having not risked it all and wondering what might have been.

Ben and JP had two very different approaches to dealing with the dilemma of how to handle competing with one woman when there are other men involved. Ben seemed to close himself off from any other possibility other than him being the F1. Either he didn't see the connection between JP and Ashley or just refused to acknowledge it. This enabled him to remain calm and composed throughout the process. He decided that he was the one. JP looked at it from all sides, realizing that there could well be a strong connection with other guys. I think he recognized that Ben did have a relationship with Ashley. He just couldn't know if it was as serious as his relationship with Ashley. He struggled with doubts and fears as the season progressed. He was battling his own fear of being rejected. JP has six years on Ben, more maturity, life experience and already having lived through the terrible heartbreak of losing a woman he loved. I think that made him better prepared in the end. I think that JP did go into the FRC confident of his feelings for Ashley and what they had. I can't say how he would have reacted if Ashley had told him he was not the one. No one can know that. I believe that when he looked in her eyes before he proposed, he knew he was the one. However, in his heart he was as prepared as one can be for disappointment.

Ben had nothing to fall back on when he was rejected. He bet the house. This is not to say that Ben was wrong. I am not assigning a value to how Ben handled it versus how JP did. I am just pointing out the differences. In light of Ben's belief when he went into the FRC, his reaction seems not so surprising. He was totally blindsided. Would it have been different if he had considered the possibility that he might not be the one? Would he have approached it differently? I don't know. What I hope for Ben is that he is ultimately able to take the good out of what happened on this journey, realize that he was finally able to open up emotionally to someone and move forward with his life. He should get out there and date people, have relationships and then find his special love. I am confident that it will happen. It's okay to hurt and be angry and have your feelings. However, it's how he chooses to deal with what happened, that will determine his future. I think he's going to find his happiness.

Thank God I don't have to type up my long post. You just said everything I am thinking. Thank you, saved me a lot of time!

[2observe]

Wow. Y'all have been busy little bees, and just caught up. I'm pressed for time, so to be concise:

1) JP and Ashley will probably hang out most with Ashley Spivey and her b/f Scott.

2) JP is not cocky. My eastcoast b/f has the same attitude and personality, and I'm from the south, and simply adore his honesty and no b/s. It's passion and sincerity and honesty.

3) I want Ben as the next bachelor, so I can see him rap in his favorite wig. I just hope he washes it first.

4) Perhaps the biggest surprise and MF "OMG" tweet was Ben is one with the temper tantrum when he threw his little hissy fit. If that happens, it's just not very gracious. Even Reid, kicked to the curb twice, kissed Jillian's hand as she walked him off the podium. Jason, had tears in his eyes, but wished DeAnna the best. I make no excuses for Ben's behavior, sorry.

In all my years, I've never understood why a person has to be gracious about being humiluated. It just never made to sense to me.

I think it comes down to intent. I cannnot believe that Ben (or anybody else for that matter) really believes Ashley intentionally humiliated Ben or that she relished or was trying to encourage receiving a proposal she never intended to accept. Therefore, the big thing to do is to be gracious about the situation. Reid definitely comes to mind. But, I realize it is easier said than done, because we are all human so we sometimes let things get the better of us. JMO, but I'm gonna cut everybody (except TPTB because I know darn good and well they had their hand in pushing this to happen) some slack over this, for that very reason.

Since Ashley said (on several occasions(sp?) that she knew earlier on who her F1 would be, and the fact that by HTDs she was more than 95% sure who she would choose, I'd say that she intentionally humiluated Ben. For Ben be gracious about the rejection, after Ashley got him to final open up makes no sense to me. That's jmo.

And I think she intended no such thing. and that's jmo Happily, it looks like we will get to enjoy the ending we both choose to see.

:D

[2observe]

JMO....

Ash is in love and she doesn't even realize it. Maybe she's never been in love before or maybe her and sis were being that dense. (sorry if you are lurking Ash ) But as soon as sis said something and Ash immediately breaks into tears says it all. She did this twice and got on the defensive and threw the B-word at her sister. Yes, I do think at this point that Ash had two choices and she needed to figure it out but sorry I really don't think Ben was one. It was JP or walk away alone. I simply cannot be convinced that someone she could only kiss closed mouth and not even notice until half way through the season was going to get engaged to her. It at least wouldn't have been believable to me anyway. CH said she had made her choice going into the finale and her sister threw her for a loop. It would have been hard for anyone (even Ben) to believe that a girl with her mind made up all of sudden pulls a 180 because of something her sister said... uhh no. I don't think that's how love works.
I love Ben... I find myself cupping my hands around his face on my computer because he's so darn precious but I don't see him and Ash ever getting engaged within the time constraints of this show. Maybe I'm just drunk of the kool-aid.

I do agree with those of you saying that Ben sincerely thought his proposal would be accepted. Someone told him this would be a good idea. Apparently he is quite confident while picking out rings. Me thinks someone was playing with his head big time. Whether it be production and or Ashley either way it's kinda sad.

Well, I had a hard time wrapping my head around it during Trista's Season. Her kisses with Ryan were mostly pecks, especially during her FRC. That is why Ashley's pecks with Ben didn't really matter that much to me.

LOL, that kiss with Russ wasn't a peck either, he had his tongue all up in there, all up in there.

You will see & understand she is stunned. I will politely say I don't think it fair to judge Ashley unless you were in her exact perdictament. I think we need to cut Ashley & Ben some slack for how they may have reacted. Not too many people go through something like this, which includes cameras & millions of viewers. Let's remember that.

Stunned, stunned, that's what the FRC entail, a proposal. She was thinking he wasn't going to propose. It never crossed her mind. She didn't have a speech ready to tell him he was the weakest link, goodbye. I just don't know why she would be stunned to do something that's a part of this process. She wasn't stunned when she sent the other 20 home.

LOL, I thought that was one of the reasons she started peck kisses.

[Guest]

nativenewyorker, if everyone on this board were as gracious as you i would actually post more. if ben had realized he wasn't a shoe-in i'm sure he would have handled the rejection better, and i'm sure ash in no way was trying to hurt him when she froze up and allowed him to get down on bended knee. we're all human and we all make mistakes so it's wise not to cast blame. as i remember a wise man said let he who is without sin cast the first stone...

[Guest]

It didn't offend me at all, I thought it was funny, because to me he looked a couple of inches taller, not a head taller, which would be how I would describe towering over someone. And now I've quibbled when I said I wouldn't. Oh, well.

I hear Ashley say suggestive words to Ben here and there, like that comment in the mud, but I never hear anything suggestive in her tone of voice or in her accompanying body language that correlates with her words. It makes me wonder how much producer prompting is going on, to make it seem like there is more chemistry between them than what Ashley is really feeling. I honestly got the same vibe from the sunscreen application scene. Very suggestive action on her part, but she sure didn't look to me like she was getting very turned on by doing it. And yes, Ben may very well have misread her body language, due in part to naivete about the show's inner workings, not the least of which may have been a producer in his ear assuring him he "had this".

I honestly don't think we will ever know what was going on in Ashley's head at that time but I have to believe that she had genuine feelings for Ben and didn't say or do anything she didn't mean, because I can't bear to think that she would lead someone on at the urging of producers or whoever. She said and did a lot of things with Ben that you wouldn't expect from someone who's in love with someone else, so I choose to believe that she was being completely open to her feelings until the very end.

[bing2262]

nativenewyorker, if everyone on this board were as gracious as you i would actually post more. if ben had realized he wasn't a shoe-in i'm sure he would have handled the rejection better, and i'm sure ash in no way was trying to hurt him when she froze up and allowed him to get down on bended knee. we're all human and we all make mistakes so it's wise not to cast blame. as i remember a wise man said let he who is without sin cast the first stone...

I agree. I think Ashley has memorized what she was going to say to Ben but somehow had brain freeze and was beaten to the punch by Ben who was excited to declare his love.Ashley loved and cared for Ben but she was not in love with him.The last thing she would want to do was intentionally humiliate Ben.Ben did not have an issue about the "proposal" ,otherwise he would have mentioned it, he seems to have recovered from tne heartbreak at the ATFR. As a saying goes, "it is better to have loved and lost than not to have loved at all".

[albean99]

It didn't offend me at all, I thought it was funny, because to me he looked a couple of inches taller, not a head taller, which would be how I would describe towering over someone. And now I've quibbled when I said I wouldn't. Oh, well.

I hear Ashley say suggestive words to Ben here and there, like that comment in the mud, but I never hear anything suggestive in her tone of voice or in her accompanying body language that correlates with her words. It makes me wonder how much producer prompting is going on, to make it seem like there is more chemistry between them than what Ashley is really feeling. I honestly got the same vibe from the sunscreen application scene. Very suggestive action on her part, but she sure didn't look to me like she was getting very turned on by doing it. And yes, Ben may very well have misread her body language, due in part to naivete about the show's inner workings, not the least of which may have been a producer in his ear assuring him he "had this".

I honestly don't think we will ever know what was going on in Ashley's head at that time but I have to believe that she had genuine feelings for Ben and didn't say or do anything she didn't mean, because I can't bear to think that she would lead someone on at the urging of producers or whoever. She said and did a lot of things with Ben that you wouldn't expect from someone who's in love with someone else, so I choose to believe that she was being completely open to her feelings until the very end.

IA, Kashoo. I think she had strong feelings for Ben or she's an accomplished actress doing bidding for the producers. I'd hope it's not the latter. I do have sympathy for the leads because I think it's hard when they have feelings for both of the f1 and in some cases f3. Where I have issues is when they lead on their f2 beyond what's needed to make them viable in the end so there will always be questions about whether they were encouraged to do so or actually had feelings. Maybe this is stereotyping but I do think it's more likely that the Bachelorettes have trouble not falling for their other guy (or in Jillian's case her f3 guy) even if they ultimately have stronger feelings for their f1. I guess Jason fell into that category also, .

I'm waiting to see how it all plays out before I say anything more about the actual proposal and Ashley's part in it. I don't want to watch Ben get hurt but do want to see his reaction. I remember wishing Kelly Jo would push Bob in the water but of course the guys can't do that. :awesome:

[ironcat]

It didn't offend me at all, I thought it was funny, because to me he looked a couple of inches taller, not a head taller, which would be how I would describe towering over someone. And now I've quibbled when I said I wouldn't. Oh, well.

I hear Ashley say suggestive words to Ben here and there, like that comment in the mud, but I never hear anything suggestive in her tone of voice or in her accompanying body language that correlates with her words. It makes me wonder how much producer prompting is going on, to make it seem like there is more chemistry between them than what Ashley is really feeling. I honestly got the same vibe from the sunscreen application scene. Very suggestive action on her part, but she sure didn't look to me like she was getting very turned on by doing it. And yes, Ben may very well have misread her body language, due in part to naivete about the show's inner workings, not the least of which may have been a producer in his ear assuring him he "had this".

I honestly don't think we will ever know what was going on in Ashley's head at that time but I have to believe that she had genuine feelings for Ben and didn't say or do anything she didn't mean, because I can't bear to think that she would lead someone on at the urging of producers or whoever. She said and did a lot of things with Ben that you wouldn't expect from someone who's in love with someone else, so I choose to believe that she was being completely open to her feelings until the very end.

I don't doubt in the least that Ashley had sincere feelings for Ben, even strong feelings, but I think once she fell for JP, somewhere in Asia, she was no longer really thinking that romantically about Ben, but more as a wonderful friend (who she also found very physically attractive). Unfortunately, the Bachelorette does not have the option to stop "leading on" the other guys as far as encouraging a possible romantic connection, even if she would prefer to, until the very end. So I don't consider her following the producers' suggestions, if indeed this was what was going on, as some mean and heartless thing she was doing, but as part of what she signed up for. If she doesn't do it, they don't have a show basically. Personally, based on what I have been seeing on my TV, I have found her "wooing" of Ben to be rather tame and chaste, certainly she has been far less aggressive and suggestive than Jillian, or even Deanna was with her ultimate "rejects". She just, to me, doesn't look like her heart (or libido) is truly in it when she participates in these sexy activities with Ben, and she's not a very good actress. JMO, but I hope that JP has been seeing it the same way that I have, so Ash has had less 'splaining to do.

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