Re: Episode 11 - 8/1 Finale - Discussion - Thread #2

[bluwavz]

I know, Bluwavz. I wouldn't mind so much if they wouldn't torment the f2 person but we know they do.

I'm a little surprised they even showed Ben proposing in that preview. Don't they want to keep anything a surprise? I guess they got a little too excited about a F2 proposal and couldn't keep it to themselves.

[bluwavz]

Sorry the quality isn't great.
http://tinypic.com/player.php?v=15popki&s=7

Thanks tiff for the video!

LOL. Just go ahead and give the ending away to everyone, ABC. Not that they weren't doing a great job of it before. I hate how lazy they are this season. It better not be like this next year. :laughingoutlou

Well, two things that definitely stayed consistent on the editing, when alot of others were epic fail, F1 got the date in epi 3 and F1 is on the right proposing, F2 on the left. Maybe next season that will be the only thing we can know for sure. :P

Those are pretty much the only two things I'll take as evidence next season. Of course, next season will probably be the one where they change those two things up. :laughingoutlou

[Love_Me]

I know, Bluwavz. I wouldn't mind so much if they wouldn't torment the f2 person but we know they do.

I'm a little surprised they even showed Ben proposing in that preview. Don't they want to keep anything a surprise? I guess they got a little too excited about a F2 proposal and couldn't keep it to themselves.

In the VO it says something JP and Ben both will purpose... Will you marry me? (Ben's Voice says this loud and clear) but will she say yes to either? Then it shows Ashley saying "I can't do this anymore".

They want it to seem like there is a possibility she rejects both guys and walks away alone.

[pbmax]

alsoaktchr wrote:
Ashley grabs his hand and helps him up.

Ashley says “You’ve got to know this is so hard for me”

Ben “Wow. I did not see this coming”.

Ashley is silent.Ben “So that’s it, huh?”

Ashley still remains silent.
Ben walks away from Ashley. Ashley chases after him. She catches up to him.

Ashley says: “ I’m so blessed to have even known you”

Ben keeps walking. Ashley grabs his arm.

Ashley “I think you are the most interesting, funny, great guy”

Ben says “I don’t need you to sugar coat anything right now. Please don’t. It’s bad enough I just was at a point that I could open up, and to have it turn out like this..I’ve always said NOTHING GOOD EVER ENDS WELL. This can’t end well. It can’t”

He walks away without saying good-bye. He did not take it well. He was bitter.
------------
So Ashley's silences are acceptable, Ben's silence is not? Ashley's mishandling of some of the other goodbyes is forgiven, Ben's raw reaction to having his proposal of marriage rejected is not? Seems like a cupcake-induced double standard to me....?
Isn't it also entirely possible that what might be interpreted by some as anger w/ Ashley is more anger at himself for giving himself over to this process? I still say Ben was unprepared for TB world.... I kinda hope he keeps far, far away from it.
Re: Reid and CL.... kudos to them. They were awesome. I'm still not sure how I feel about Jason....

That's what I had a problem with, the standing there saying nothing. I would walk off too. She wait's until he walk off, then she wants to talk. I'm seeing she's got a lot of growing to do. Her mother says she has to learn, that she does.

[agentcurls]

alsoaktchr wrote:
Ashley grabs his hand and helps him up.

Ashley says “You’ve got to know this is so hard for me”

Ben “Wow. I did not see this coming”.

Ashley is silent.Ben “So that’s it, huh?”

Ashley still remains silent.
Ben walks away from Ashley. Ashley chases after him. She catches up to him.

Ashley says: “ I’m so blessed to have even known you”

Ben keeps walking. Ashley grabs his arm.

Ashley “I think you are the most interesting, funny, great guy”

Ben says “I don’t need you to sugar coat anything right now. Please don’t. It’s bad enough I just was at a point that I could open up, and to have it turn out like this..I’ve always said NOTHING GOOD EVER ENDS WELL. This can’t end well. It can’t”

He walks away without saying good-bye. He did not take it well. He was bitter.
------------
So Ashley's silences are acceptable, Ben's silence is not? Ashley's mishandling of some of the other goodbyes is forgiven, Ben's raw reaction to having his proposal of marriage rejected is not? Seems like a cupcake-induced double standard to me....?
Isn't it also entirely possible that what might be interpreted by some as anger w/ Ashley is more anger at himself for giving himself over to this process? I still say Ben was unprepared for TB world.... I kinda hope he keeps far, far away from it.
Re: Reid and CL.... kudos to them. They were awesome. I'm still not sure how I feel about Jason....

That's what I had a problem with, the standing there saying nothing. I would walk off too. She wait's until he walk off, then she wants to talk. I'm seeing she's got a lot of growing to do. Her mother says she has to learn, that she does.

You will see & understand she is stunned. I will politely say I don't think it fair to judge Ashley unless you were in her exact perdictament. I think we need to cut Ashley & Ben some slack for how they may have reacted. Not too many people go through something like this, which includes cameras & millions of viewers. Let's remember that.

[Guest]

alsoaktchr wrote:
Ashley grabs his hand and helps him up.

Ashley says “You’ve got to know this is so hard for me”

Ben “Wow. I did not see this coming”.

Ashley is silent.Ben “So that’s it, huh?”

Ashley still remains silent.
Ben walks away from Ashley. Ashley chases after him. She catches up to him.

Ashley says: “ I’m so blessed to have even known you”

Ben keeps walking. Ashley grabs his arm.

Ashley “I think you are the most interesting, funny, great guy”

Ben says “I don’t need you to sugar coat anything right now. Please don’t. It’s bad enough I just was at a point that I could open up, and to have it turn out like this..I’ve always said NOTHING GOOD EVER ENDS WELL. This can’t end well. It can’t”

He walks away without saying good-bye. He did not take it well. He was bitter.
------------
So Ashley's silences are acceptable, Ben's silence is not? Ashley's mishandling of some of the other goodbyes is forgiven, Ben's raw reaction to having his proposal of marriage rejected is not? Seems like a cupcake-induced double standard to me....?
Isn't it also entirely possible that what might be interpreted by some as anger w/ Ashley is more anger at himself for giving himself over to this process? I still say Ben was unprepared for TB world.... I kinda hope he keeps far, far away from it.
Re: Reid and CL.... kudos to them. They were awesome. I'm still not sure how I feel about Jason....

That's what I had a problem with, the standing there saying nothing. I would walk off too. She wait's until he walk off, then she wants to talk. I'm seeing she's got a lot of growing to do. Her mother says she has to learn, that she does.

You will see & understand she is stunned. I will politely say I don't think it fair to judge Ashley unless you were in her exact perdictament. I think we need to cut Ashley & Ben some slack for how they may have reacted. Not too many people go through something like this, which includes cameras & millions of viewers. Let's remember that.

AgentCurls and no one knows better than you do!

[2observe]

Wow. Y'all have been busy little bees, and just caught up. I'm pressed for time, so to be concise:

1) JP and Ashley will probably hang out most with Ashley Spivey and her b/f Scott.

2) JP is not cocky. My eastcoast b/f has the same attitude and personality, and I'm from the south, and simply adore his honesty and no b/s. It's passion and sincerity and honesty.

3) I want Ben as the next bachelor, so I can see him rap in his favorite wig. I just hope he washes it first.

4) Perhaps the biggest surprise and MF "OMG" tweet was Ben is one with the temper tantrum when he threw his little hissy fit. If that happens, it's just not very gracious. Even Reid, kicked to the curb twice, kissed Jillian's hand as she walked him off the podium. Jason, had tears in his eyes, but wished DeAnna the best. I make no excuses for Ben's behavior, sorry.

In all my years, I've never understood why a person has to be gracious about being humiluated. It just never made to sense to me.

I think it comes down to intent. I cannnot believe that Ben (or anybody else for that matter) really believes Ashley intentionally humiliated Ben or that she relished or was trying to encourage receiving a proposal she never intended to accept. Therefore, the big thing to do is to be gracious about the situation. Reid definitely comes to mind. But, I realize it is easier said than done, because we are all human so we sometimes let things get the better of us. JMO, but I'm gonna cut everybody (except TPTB because I know darn good and well they had their hand in pushing this to happen) some slack over this, for that very reason.

Since Ashley said (on several occasions(sp?) that she knew earlier on who her F1 would be, and the fact that by HTDs she was more than 95% sure who she would choose, I'd say that she intentionally humiluated Ben. For Ben be gracious about the rejection, after Ashley got him to final open up makes no sense to me. That's jmo.

[Guest]

alsoaktchr wrote:
Ashley grabs his hand and helps him up.

Ashley says “You’ve got to know this is so hard for me”

Ben “Wow. I did not see this coming”.

Ashley is silent.Ben “So that’s it, huh?”

Ashley still remains silent.
Ben walks away from Ashley. Ashley chases after him. She catches up to him.

Ashley says: “ I’m so blessed to have even known you”

Ben keeps walking. Ashley grabs his arm.

Ashley “I think you are the most interesting, funny, great guy”

Ben says “I don’t need you to sugar coat anything right now. Please don’t. It’s bad enough I just was at a point that I could open up, and to have it turn out like this..I’ve always said NOTHING GOOD EVER ENDS WELL. This can’t end well. It can’t”

He walks away without saying good-bye. He did not take it well. He was bitter.
------------
So Ashley's silences are acceptable, Ben's silence is not? Ashley's mishandling of some of the other goodbyes is forgiven, Ben's raw reaction to having his proposal of marriage rejected is not? Seems like a cupcake-induced double standard to me....?
Isn't it also entirely possible that what might be interpreted by some as anger w/ Ashley is more anger at himself for giving himself over to this process? I still say Ben was unprepared for TB world.... I kinda hope he keeps far, far away from it.
Re: Reid and CL.... kudos to them. They were awesome. I'm still not sure how I feel about Jason....

That's what I had a problem with, the standing there saying nothing. I would walk off too. She wait's until he walk off, then she wants to talk. I'm seeing she's got a lot of growing to do. Her mother says she has to learn, that she does.

You will see & understand she is stunned. I will politely say I don't think it fair to judge Ashley unless you were in her exact perdictament. I think we need to cut Ashley & Ben some slack for how they may have reacted. Not too many people go through something like this, which includes cameras & millions of viewers. Let's remember that.

Thank you for saying that AC - that's been my gut feeling over it. I hope most people get that once they watch the whole thing. One thing that just occurred to me is by ensuring that both guys propose, incorrect leaks about who is F1 is greatly increased (Fijiman, anybody?) This just really makes me even more certain that TPTB were gunning for 2 proposals and would go to any length to make F2 believe he was F1 and should get right out there and speak first and make his proposal. This is for TPTB

[Guest]

Wow. Y'all have been busy little bees, and just caught up. I'm pressed for time, so to be concise:

1) JP and Ashley will probably hang out most with Ashley Spivey and her b/f Scott.

2) JP is not cocky. My eastcoast b/f has the same attitude and personality, and I'm from the south, and simply adore his honesty and no b/s. It's passion and sincerity and honesty.

3) I want Ben as the next bachelor, so I can see him rap in his favorite wig. I just hope he washes it first.

4) Perhaps the biggest surprise and MF "OMG" tweet was Ben is one with the temper tantrum when he threw his little hissy fit. If that happens, it's just not very gracious. Even Reid, kicked to the curb twice, kissed Jillian's hand as she walked him off the podium. Jason, had tears in his eyes, but wished DeAnna the best. I make no excuses for Ben's behavior, sorry.

In all my years, I've never understood why a person has to be gracious about being humiluated. It just never made to sense to me.

I think it comes down to intent. I cannnot believe that Ben (or anybody else for that matter) really believes Ashley intentionally humiliated Ben or that she relished or was trying to encourage receiving a proposal she never intended to accept. Therefore, the big thing to do is to be gracious about the situation. Reid definitely comes to mind. But, I realize it is easier said than done, because we are all human so we sometimes let things get the better of us. JMO, but I'm gonna cut everybody (except TPTB because I know darn good and well they had their hand in pushing this to happen) some slack over this, for that very reason.

Since Ashley said (on several occasions(sp?) that she knew earlier on who her F1 would be, and the fact that by HTDs she was more than 95% sure who she would choose, I'd say that she intentionally humiluated Ben. For Ben be gracious about the rejection, after Ashley got him to final open up makes no sense to me. That's jmo.

And I think she intended no such thing. and that's jmo Happily, it looks like we will get to enjoy the ending we both choose to see.

[Nativenewyorker]

I have been trying to be as respectful as possible towards both Ben and his fans. It's never easy to be F2 and it hurts to see it when you are a fan of that person. I have said that I will wait until I see it all play out before I make any judgements. I have some questions in my mind based on the dialogue between Ben and Ashley at the FRC. Ben did interrupt Ashley and did not initially allow her to tell him what she intended to say. That indicates to me that Ben had a clear intention of proposing. How Ashley reacts and what she does as he talks to her and then goes down on one knee to propose, will be the thing I am looking for when I see it. Ashley could well have been so taken aback that she literally froze right there. She might not have known how to react or what to say. It's easy for someone to say she should have done this or should have done that. Once I see how it all happens, then I will be able to have some reasonable opinion about all of it. For now I am just going to wait and see.

As far as what led up to this, the other things that stood out to me is that Ben apparently never considered the possibility that he might be rejected. I think that is one big reason why he ends up taking it so hard. If you think it's a done deal and then it all blows up in your face, that would make his reaction seem quite understandable. We have never seen Ben get angry, but this is the worst of all possible situations. JP had a very different process. He thought it all out and weighed the risks versus the rewards. If you have ever been in therapy and are dealing with something that scares you to the point that you can't handle it, many times the therapist or counselor will ask you - what is the worst thing that could happen. That enables you to look at it and realize that it's not the end of the world. Then you can move forward. I think this is what JP did. He told Ashley on their HTD - someone's heart will be broken at the end. So he did face the worst case scenario. He knew that there was a chance he would have his heart broken again. However, he already faced this in his life when his two and a half year relationship with the woman he loved deeply ended. He also knew that even though it was a terrible thing, he managed to survive. I think this was the key to how JP was able to get through this season and keep himself together. He discussed it with his brother at the HTD. His brother asked him point blank if he was prepared to accept the possibility that he might be heart broken again. He told him that he was prepared to take that risk because of his feelings for Ashley. JP didn't want to walk away having not risked it all and wondering what might have been.

Ben and JP had two very different approaches to dealing with the dilemma of how to handle competing with one woman when there are other men involved. Ben seemed to close himself off from any other possibility other than him being the F1. Either he didn't see the connection between JP and Ashley or just refused to acknowledge it. This enabled him to remain calm and composed throughout the process. He decided that he was the one. JP looked at it from all sides, realizing that there could well be a strong connection with other guys. I think he recognized that Ben did have a relationship with Ashley. He just couldn't know if it was as serious as his relationship with Ashley. He struggled with doubts and fears as the season progressed. He was battling his own fear of being rejected. JP has six years on Ben, more maturity, life experience and already having lived through the terrible heartbreak of losing a woman he loved. I think that made him better prepared in the end. I think that JP did go into the FRC confident of his feelings for Ashley and what they had. I can't say how he would have reacted if Ashley had told him he was not the one. No one can know that. I believe that when he looked in her eyes before he proposed, he knew he was the one. However, in his heart he was as prepared as one can be for disappointment.

Ben had nothing to fall back on when he was rejected. He bet the house. This is not to say that Ben was wrong. I am not assigning a value to how Ben handled it versus how JP did. I am just pointing out the differences. In light of Ben's belief when he went into the FRC, his reaction seems not so surprising. He was totally blindsided. Would it have been different if he had considered the possibility that he might not be the one? Would he have approached it differently? I don't know. What I hope for Ben is that he is ultimately able to take the good out of what happened on this journey, realize that he was finally able to open up emotionally to someone and move forward with his life. He should get out there and date people, have relationships and then find his special love. I am confident that it will happen. It's okay to hurt and be angry and have your feelings. However, it's how he chooses to deal with what happened, that will determine his future. I think he's going to find his happiness.

[2observe]

JMO....

Ash is in love and she doesn't even realize it. Maybe she's never been in love before or maybe her and sis were being that dense. (sorry if you are lurking Ash ) But as soon as sis said something and Ash immediately breaks into tears says it all. She did this twice and got on the defensive and threw the B-word at her sister. Yes, I do think at this point that Ash had two choices and she needed to figure it out but sorry I really don't think Ben was one. It was JP or walk away alone. I simply cannot be convinced that someone she could only kiss closed mouth and not even notice until half way through the season was going to get engaged to her. It at least wouldn't have been believable to me anyway. CH said she had made her choice going into the finale and her sister threw her for a loop. It would have been hard for anyone (even Ben) to believe that a girl with her mind made up all of sudden pulls a 180 because of something her sister said... uhh no. I don't think that's how love works.
I love Ben... I find myself cupping my hands around his face on my computer because he's so darn precious but I don't see him and Ash ever getting engaged within the time constraints of this show. Maybe I'm just drunk of the kool-aid.

I do agree with those of you saying that Ben sincerely thought his proposal would be accepted. Someone told him this would be a good idea. Apparently he is quite confident while picking out rings. Me thinks someone was playing with his head big time. Whether it be production and or Ashley either way it's kinda sad.

Well, I had a hard time wrapping my head around it during Trista's Season. Her kisses with Ryan were mostly pecks, especially during her FRC. That is why Ashley's pecks with Ben didn't really matter that much to me.

[Cecilia]

I think Ashley's problem at the FRC was that she had no idea what to say to Ben and was just paralyzed with fear. To suggest that she intentionally humiliated him is ridiculous. She cared about him, she's a nice, emotional girl. Not exactly "cut out" to be the Bachelorette.

[Sponsored content]