Nick Viall - Bachelorette 10 - 11 - Discussion #8

I couldn't take a second more of Juliette's interview about Ben. I found her very annoying and immature.

I've never gotten a salesman's vibe from Nick, on the contrary it's always been IMO truthful comments about his feelings, or just about life in general. Some salesmen try to say the right thing all the time, without any truth to it. I work with many sales people. Some are genuine and caring, some are so full of it it's obvious.

I'll take some one who is a thinking person over someone who just acts without thinking any day of the week. Calculating ones actions is not a bad thing.  Nick is very honest with his feelings and takes ownership of his actions.  I do not find him smarmy in any way.  I have never seen any other person on the Bachelor franchise handle all the negativity with more grace and humor.  I appreciate Nick being Nick.

Juliet seems like every other TMZ style blogger who gets a jolly from trash talking others. It was like fingers on the chalkboard just forcing myself to listen to that podcast.  I actually found it hilarious that she thought she would have a chance IRL with Ben.  Delusions......

GuardianAngel wrote:I've never gotten a salesman's vibe from Nick, on the contrary it's always been IMO truthful comments about his feelings, or just about life in general. Some salesmen try to say the right thing all the time, without any truth to it. I work with many sales people. Some are genuine and caring, some are so full of it it's obvious.  

ITA. And along with that, Nick has never spun anything to be "edit". He always, to this day on his most recent interview with his sister, said for better or worse, no matter edit, he is real and nothing he has done in the years following him indicate he has changed his stance on this. He never tried to "sell" himself. Nothing fake about Nick, IMO. Like him or not like him, at least he is authentically himself which is rare when it comes to this show, JMHO

That podcast girl made me giggle, thinking, if she's aware what she has just admitted ...

To me Ben always resulted the best possible candidate for the Bachelor role ... because from the start he was very good in handling the situation ... very diplomatic, prudent ... and smart... smart in his choices, of what to say, to whom, when and how ... that showed me a guy who is a good analyst of the people and given situation, good strategist when making the alliances (and connections he built), good in processing the environment and acting accordingly ... that's what I also understand under the description of a "politician" ... I wouldn't use the word "manipulator" because that causes the uproar ...

He proved to be up to the task when he very carefully brought up the "late night visit", carefully because he was persuaded to "let us know" (by we know who) and not to implicate himself in the story ... but still maintaining his role of a noble suitor with genuine feelings and right intentions (that were never questioned). He was honest, direct, without resulting accusatory and putting the target on himself. He always stayed humble and pragmatic ... while admirably "pretending to fight" for a chance with Kaitlyn (I could only buy another version of this story if there is one where Ben sincerely believed to be the last man standing with Kaitlyn).

So I find Ben's traits positive, because in the world where I live that's a survival kit. I admire people who can make it happen and come out as a winner. I applaud the cleverness and I applaud the resoluteness ... in the working place it's often needed. And the lead gig is a job ... so that always comes handy.

Ben reminded me in many ways of Nick, but not completely, since Nick's 1st stint categorically lacked diplomacy and prudence ... if there's one thing I could fault Nick of is him being too honest. He was too honest with everyone, from the producers to the lead, to the rest of the cast, when he discussed his observations/opinions and analysis with the other guys ... resulting then being accused of being a strategist (as if other men had no same strategy in their mind, never thought of it and blindly waited for each day to happen) ... too straight-forward open about his thought process and his "moves" (since no other guy ever thinks of a day ahead or IDK what might end up on TV at the end) ... and too honest about his own flaws, faults and screw-ups.
With that he became vulnerable himself to criticism, because more he gives there's more to judge.

But I don't fault him, because I actually appreciate that in the contestant of the "reality TV show" ... where people put their best performance for the best future "sell" of themselves.

Nick put on the plate the good and the bad.

And politicians never do that. Even when you ask them what is their weakness, they are prompted to say a trait that can still be turned into a strength. Isn't that the rule for every job interview? Give as little as necessary and control the influx of the information. For every leader the knowledge is the power (that can control the masses) ... and the people's ignorance is their bliss and the leader's advantage.

GuardianAngel wrote:I couldn't take a second more of Juliette's interview about Ben. I found her very annoying and immature.

I've never gotten a salesman's vibe from Nick, on the contrary it's always been IMO truthful comments about his feelings, or just about life in general. Some salesmen try to say the right thing all the time, without any truth to it. I work with many sales people. Some are genuine and caring, some are so full of it it's obvious.  

Me neither. For someone who's supposedly so smooth and manipulative, he's sure managed to say and do a lot of things to get people riled up. And it seems like whenever he says something positive or thought-provoking, which is most of the time, it's either ignored or considered insincere. I think he's just being himself, for better or worse. I've yet to see any reason to doubt his word or look for ulterior motives where there aren't any (IMO). He's very consistent with his words and actions.

For me, Juliette and Jacoby's podcast is a highlight of the week when the show is on, better than the show itself many weeks. I love them, they are hilarious and often spot on in their comments, IMO. She's been a huge Ben fan from the start.

And TBH, I completely agree that Nick has a smarmy salesman vibe to him. Didn't see it on Andi's season, but after a second season of the same stuff, now it's all I can see from him. His second go round really took away the like I had for him on and after Andi's season.

chasingpavements wrote:I don't know, Nick and Ben are two VERY different people, IMHO. I felt that way even when I was a  fan of Nick and completely neutral on Ben. Nick comes off as very calculated and his wheels are always spinning; he's always analyzing what has happened and predicting what will happen. I don't really see that in Ben at all. He's more intelligent than the typical contestant and he's calculated in the sense that he thinks before he speaks and acts, but I don't get the super analytical and neurotic vibe that I got from Nick.

And, honestly, I have a  feeling that Juliette (and many other's) dislike of "Normcore Nick" is just based on a gut feeling. I didn't get why people hated him SO much since he never really did anything that bad, but I've since gotten that sleazy, salesman vibe that I'm sure others got from the very beginning. I'm sure Juliette/Jacoby will snark on Ben soon enough. They loved Kaitlyn during Chris's season, and constantly bashed her during hers.

AllAboutLove wrote:Everyone is a different person. Different strokes for different folks and all that.

But I see the same thing... Nick taking time off to pursue whatever he wants to (likely on TV/public arena) and Ben taking time off to pursue whatever he wants to (on TV/public arena).

One may be idolized the other ostracized but it's all the same to me at the end of the day.

I think there are several reasons for this.

Nick had spilled Andi's season before we really got to meet him. Sure we had done some sleuthing on him, but the first glimpse of him on screen was his leaked video where he was not a happy camper, talking...loudly...venting....his frustration. He talked a bit of smack about...at that time...a generally well liked leading lady and her F1. Despite what people may say about not being influenced by such things, I think it is hard not to be. So many of those in on the spoilers, disliked him and stood up for her and Josh before the season even began airing. Nick simply became a bitter ex and a poor loser.

No doubt, the producers also got a glimpse of that leaked video and edited accordingly. Nick is a troublemaker, disliked by the other guys. Clearly they had this footage and had manipulated this beforehand, but who knows how much they would have edited in or out if not for the leak. Ben on the other hand, first shows up on our screens in all his squeaky clean Peter Brady glory. No negativity anywhere in sight. Always the perfect gentleman.

Nick then compounds all the previous issues with the granddaddy of them all...spilling the sex question on AFTR. That sealed his fate with many. Ben on the other hand, played by the rules, didn't tattle on the lead when she was sneaking around with Alf and hiding in their room when production shows up. He is always polite, calm, charming...and clearly not in the least invested in her...unlike Nick, who did seem to have real...very inconveniently real...emotions for his bette...#1 and #2.

Now how this will all end is the big question. As we all know, often the people the audience likes the most and are rooting for to be the next lead, end up being disliked by the end of their season. Nick got a rather more favourable edit his second time around despite showing up several episodes in and seemingly, upsetting a whole new group of guys. Despite the generally more sympathetic edit, it is however hard to undo that first impression and for some that will never change. We have yet to see how Ben will fare. Clearly, the first couple and their relationship sank like a ton of bricks and the second couple, while still together, have already turned many a former fan off with their post show behaviour. They say that living well is the best revenge so we will have to wait and see who in the long run comes out of this truly smelling like a   .

The weird thing is that I (and at least a couple of other regular posters here) loved him last season, but felt like we saw his "true colors" this season. I never cared about Nick spoiling the season or what he said about And/Josh on the airplane; he wasn't calling them names or anything, just giving his rational, well-thought out (and completely accurate) opinion of him. I didn't have an issue with the ATFR comment at the time, b/c I felt it was something that slipped out b/c he was honestly broken and betrayed by it, but his comments since then make me think it was a planned revenge.

*edit*

*edit*

And Nick makes a difference to me. I don't need to disclose why, but I gladly do, because I like sharing my own experience with people and I find it comforting when others share that as well, because we can learn something from it and if not much, we can see that we are not alone in our struggles.

With Nick ... I find him interesting, appealing, attractive for who he is, despite the fact that he isn't my physical turn-on and his photos don't do much difference to me. But he makes me think and question my own abilities, fears, limits and willingness to dare my desires, fight for my causes and putting myself out there again without having to negate my vulnerable side. And it's not him per se doing that ... but his presence. Him living his life fully, following what he likes, wants, beliefs in. An idea of a man, flawed as any, who doesn't let the world around him dictate his own fate.

So I'm not bothered by it ... I welcome it.
I don't find the stimulation in his misfortune, but I do find incentive the idea of an ordinary guy making the best out of his own life (experience).

I don't think he is special or anyway more important than me because he appears on our screens. That's why i also don't expect him to be perfect and without the fault, making no mistakes on his way, since then I should expect and demand that from myself too. I'm not jealous or envious of his life, the opportunities he has that I can only dream of or the sheer luck of having so many people to follow him ... and if there is any anticipation from that is for him to take advantage of it and make a good use of it, for something that counts.

chasingpavements wrote:The weird thing is that I (and at least a couple of other regular posters here) loved him last season, but felt like we saw his "true colors" this season. I never cared about Nick spoiling the season or what he said about And/Josh on the airplane; he wasn't calling them names or anything, just giving his rational, well-thought out (and completely accurate) opinion of him. I didn't have an issue with the ATFR comment at the time, b/c I felt it was something that slipped out b/c he was honestly broken and betrayed by it, but his comments since then make me think it was a planned revenge.

*edit*

I know that there were several that were fans the first time round, but not so much the second. I think this is partially just due to that second time around curse. Like you said, there are very few that come out of a second appearance, generally as well loved...other than Sean...and that I suspect is related to him actually having a successful relationship. (However, even for Sean, I remember quite a few who were fans of either Lindsay or AshLee who were ragging on his behaviour at the end. He just had the smarts and good fortune to pick himself a winner, so people couldn't criticize too much.)

I think no matter how well liked or how good the edit, once someone returns...be it to be the lead or a contestant once again...we question their motives more and look at them a little differently. Couple that with the fact that Nick already had a lot of negativity associated with him...even if you were a fan you were aware of it...it isn't surprising that some get worn down by that negativity...even if not consciously.

I also partially blame SM. Earlier contestants didn't have to deal with the barrage of SM that they do now. Yes, they had TV/magazines and eventually Facebook, but that was it. Once the initial publicity was over, they could generally slink away back to their regular lives. Now with every new form of SM popping up regularly, they inundate us constantly with every little tidbit of their lives, things they promote/sell and silly thoughts that pop into their head. The temptation to stay relevant, be it loved or hated, and the monetary opportunities available these days, are just too tempting for many. It seems to me that generally, once they start overloading us with all their sharing, blogging, pictures, Instagram, snapchat, and all the other social platforms that I am not even aware of, they start annoying us more. The ones that share less, seem to be liked more.

As far as Nick's true colors concern ... I guess we all create the image of who Nick is ... it's our impression of him that we like (or don't) since we don't really know him (or any other person from this show, personally).. and if that idea gets challenged with something Nick says or does that doesn't fit the perception we have of him .. then he either disappoints or we are faced with the reality which we either accept or don't...

and we might feel let down, deluded, betrayed because of what we believed may not be true or we feel irritated by him because we see the potential in him to be the person we thought of him to be (and could be) and he's not. JMO

I could say I've been challenged a couple of times since I started to follow him, but so far he hasn't disappointed. I just had to accept that he is less smarter than what my initial impression of him was ... and that he does make mistakes, still, even the repeated ones ... but then again, so do I ... so why would I want or need (to expect) him to be almighty?

*edit*

The world isn't black and white. People aren't all good or all bad, unless they're sociopaths, we're all some shade of grey. I think Nick's "true colours" include the good and the bad and the good's winning by a landslide. I could always assume he's this and that based on vague hearsay and zero proof, but I feel it would be a bit of a leap to call those his true colours. I'd rather judge him based on facts. I've yet to see any facts that point to him being a so called bad person. He may not be everyone's cup of tea, but that's not his fault, since no one is.