Nick Viall - Bachelorette 11 - *Spoilers - Sleuthing* - Discussion #5

Happydays ... last season I would agree with you, but after seeing the end of the game I don't think that would be any better match. So to explain - and yes, I'll bring "the DA" in to do so:

Nick is very controversial, even in his own opinions, actions, choices, behavior and attitude ... but he isn't confrontational. He doesn't like to argue, he doesn't like to have to justify himself (he does go to extremes to explain, but it's not his favorite pass time), especially when he is "under attack" by people who think they have him all figured out. He doesn't suffer the "accusers".

I was under the same impression last year that the "former couple" could be a good match, because they would both benefit from each other and smooth the "flaws" each of them has ... and grow together ... and then I remember, Litta asked the question regarding one specific personal trait of Andi and how would that bode well with Nick's personality.
And I still remember answering, that I hadn't seen her acting like that in Nick's presence and I thought that that's the "positive change" that Nick's character creates ... I was wrong ... on the day of their break-up she brought it up ... and Nick did what Nick does ... he retreated himself, he was silent, he backed away and suffered alone (that's the reason I believe I understand him, because that's my MO) ...until the ATFR (smth I was proud of him for doing even if it wasn't the best thing for the given situation).

That's the same behavior he showed when he was accused by CS about the strategizing game, that's the attitude he adapts on his SM. So I feel confident to say that's his MO too.
And in long term that isn't healthy to do/have in your relationship, especially when you have a person in front who is unwilling to see your side, to understand your point of view (even if it isn't shared) and be empathetic. In that regard Kaitlyn is a better opposite (so far from what I perceive).

chasingpavements wrote:

stuckinsc wrote:

peggy0221 wrote:I still remember during Chris S's season, Nick Chicks thought Nick-Kait would be a good match. And how we were worried yet excited to see him joined the season to pursue her. However, the more I know Kaitlyn and the more I see how the season unfolded, I start to think Nick is better off without Kaitlyn.

I think he needs a stronger woman, who knows what herself wants in life, knows how to prioritize her preferences in life yet can also go with the flow. And someone who can be as deep a thinker as he is, who will have fun with him as well as talk about life, philosophy, those kind of stuff. And the most important, someone who is ready to spend the rest of life with him.

I still like Kaitlyn, but I think she still can't resist the temptations out there. And she is not as deep as Nick, so they hit it off very quick, but they may not last if he is the F1.

Maybe someone like Whitney is the best match with Nick?

I actually always thought they were an odd pair.  Nick might like to have fun, but he is a thinker too.  I think he needs someone who makes him laugh, but can also keep up in a conversation.  The fact that Kaitlyn and Nick don't really talk is a bad sign to me.  His telling her it is good to just enjoy sometimes or whatever he said at the RC cocktail party, I was sitting there thinking, true, but there are times when you need a good conversation too.  I don't know that they would have had many great conversations.

This is actually something I was wondering about, because in her initial blog about Nick, Kaitlyn did say that they were the closest two people can be without meeting and that he was her go-to person for advice. So, to me that suggests that they DID have a strong connection beyond just the physical. I kind of think that Kaitlyn/Nick have had good talks on the show but they just aren't showing them to fit in with his "lust" edit.

That said, does Kaitlyn strike me as the type of person to talk about racial tension  and the presidential campaign in her free time? Not really. So, I could see Nick not getting the mental stimulation he needs in the long-term and Kaitlyn getting bored with him if he would prefer to stay in rather than drink and party all the time. I actually think that Nick needs someone like Andi, and that Andi needs someone like Nick (instead of the typical jock she goes for).

I think Kaitlyn is pretty deep... You can see it in the way she makes her decisions. You have to be pretty self-aware and philosophical to make some of the decisions she makes in the show (incl. the sex. incl. the way she's handled Kupah and Ian) 'Be yourself' is an easy thing to say, difficult thing to do, and a near impossible thing to pull off on national tv when everyone's watching. It comes from years of deliberation and self awareness. In an interview recently, she justified this by saying something like - at the end of the day, the person I get engaged to will get me exactly the way I am, flaws and all, so I'd rather be myself than act a certain because people are watching. It struck me how... The act of playing a certain role on TV is why so many couples of the Bachelor/ette don't make it. The cameras go off and it's a different person. I can't see anyone from these shows talking about race or the Presidential election, not even Nick. I mean, I *know* that they probably do but it's hard for me imagine when I've only seen them in a frivolous setting like this so that's difficult for me to imagine with both of them.

I still think N & K would've made a great pair. I wish I saw Nick first on Kaitlyn's season without knowing anything about him (from Andi's season). I think we would've seen their relationship grow organically which is what we're missing... And we would've also not gotten a lust-edit from the producers. That said, it comes down to what's better and while K & N would've been good together, Shawn and Kaitlyn are better, more balanced.

I personally think needs a happy ground between the two leads. He needs the mental stimulation but he also needs the lady who can make him laugh.

Before I got told to stop saying it because she belonged to CS, I thought he and Whitney would be a great pair. She can be serious and laugh. Best of both worlds. I would be excited to see them hanging out after the season is done.

I am definitely a Kaitlyn fan, and I agree that the way that she dealt with Kupah and Ian shows what type of person she is. She even said something like if she had been 25, she wouldn't have had the maturity and self-confidence to get through this. I think that's why someone like Andi blew up at Eric when he questioned her, because it just brought up all of her insecurities, whereas someone like Kaitlyn is certain in her own character that she doesn't have to do that.

And, I guess the reason I brought up race was because I saw Nick favorite a tweet about removing the confederate flag and the first thing that came to mind was "he's a bit more intellectual and concerned about current events than the typical contestant". I don't know if that's even true, but that's the vibe I get. I guess I still really like Nick/Kaitlyn together and am a bit sad that they didn't end up together, so I'm trying to understand it myself.

chasingpavements wrote:

stuckinsc wrote:

peggy0221 wrote:I still remember during Chris S's season, Nick Chicks thought Nick-Kait would be a good match. And how we were worried yet excited to see him joined the season to pursue her. However, the more I know Kaitlyn and the more I see how the season unfolded, I start to think Nick is better off without Kaitlyn.

I think he needs a stronger woman, who knows what herself wants in life, knows how to prioritize her preferences in life yet can also go with the flow. And someone who can be as deep a thinker as he is, who will have fun with him as well as talk about life, philosophy, those kind of stuff. And the most important, someone who is ready to spend the rest of life with him.

I still like Kaitlyn, but I think she still can't resist the temptations out there. And she is not as deep as Nick, so they hit it off very quick, but they may not last if he is the F1.

Maybe someone like Whitney is the best match with Nick?

I actually always thought they were an odd pair.  Nick might like to have fun, but he is a thinker too.  I think he needs someone who makes him laugh, but can also keep up in a conversation.  The fact that Kaitlyn and Nick don't really talk is a bad sign to me.  His telling her it is good to just enjoy sometimes or whatever he said at the RC cocktail party, I was sitting there thinking, true, but there are times when you need a good conversation too.  I don't know that they would have had many great conversations.

This is actually something I was wondering about, because in her initial blog about Nick, Kaitlyn did say that they were the closest two people can be without meeting and that he was her go-to person for advice. So, to me that suggests that they DID have a strong connection beyond just the physical. I kind of think that Kaitlyn/Nick have had good talks on the show but they just aren't showing them to fit in with his "lust" edit.

That said, does Kaitlyn strike me as the type of person to talk about racial tension  and the presidential campaign in her free time? Not really. So, I could see Nick not getting the mental stimulation he needs in the long-term and Kaitlyn getting bored with him if he would prefer to stay in rather than drink and party all the time. I actually think that Nick needs someone like Andi, and that Andi needs someone like Nick (instead of the typical jock she goes for).

I took the bolded to mean advice about the show and how to handle media, negativity in SM, etc. That was their common link, but you can only talk about the show for so long and have to get into real world issues/topics. I think this is when the intellectual disparity may have made itself felt. Andi didn't make him laugh and I don't think Kaitlyn makes him think. He needs someone in the middle. Sucks for him that I'm not 20 years younger.

Sprite wrote:

chasingpavements wrote:

stuckinsc wrote:

I actually always thought they were an odd pair.  Nick might like to have fun, but he is a thinker too.  I think he needs someone who makes him laugh, but can also keep up in a conversation.  The fact that Kaitlyn and Nick don't really talk is a bad sign to me.  His telling her it is good to just enjoy sometimes or whatever he said at the RC cocktail party, I was sitting there thinking, true, but there are times when you need a good conversation too.  I don't know that they would have had many great conversations.

This is actually something I was wondering about, because in her initial blog about Nick, Kaitlyn did say that they were the closest two people can be without meeting and that he was her go-to person for advice. So, to me that suggests that they DID have a strong connection beyond just the physical. I kind of think that Kaitlyn/Nick have had good talks on the show but they just aren't showing them to fit in with his "lust" edit.

That said, does Kaitlyn strike me as the type of person to talk about racial tension  and the presidential campaign in her free time? Not really. So, I could see Nick not getting the mental stimulation he needs in the long-term and Kaitlyn getting bored with him if he would prefer to stay in rather than drink and party all the time. I actually think that Nick needs someone like Andi, and that Andi needs someone like Nick (instead of the typical jock she goes for).

I took the bolded to mean advice about the show and how to handle media, negativity in SM, etc. That was their common link, but you can only talk about the show for so long and have to get into real world issues/topics. I think this is when the intellectual disparity may have made itself felt. Andi didn't make him laugh and I don't think Kaitlyn makes him think. He needs someone in the middle. Sucks for him that I'm not 20 years younger.

Sprite, cougars are in, go get him! I personally think a Whitney type person might be a great middle ground for Nick. I think the attraction to Kaitlyn was physical but also a over compensation for the person he was attracted to last year. Before they both started dissing him, they could not have been two more opposite people.

I do think Kaitlyn is very self-aware, but I don't see her being all that interested in current events outside entertainment or hockey, and I think Nick is very much into more than entertainment and hockey. I think that is why she is better with Shawn, they seem to connect more on that level.

Sprite, go get Nick, or go smack him around a little bit, so he stops trying for love from TPTB, they don't cast many who would be good for him, at most one each season. The one from the previous bachelor is taken and not sure if he and the one from the last bachelor had any spark when they met.

I believe Kaitlyn isn't shallow or superficial, but she is simple and there's a difference.
It all comes down to personal priorities and lifestyle. What's important to you and what power of control do you have, what knowledge you possess and what you do about it? Do you try to find a meaning, search for understanding of things that surround you?
I live in a culture where the usual "dinner conversation" would be about politics, economy, society&ordinance, environment, ... by "Ian's standards" we are a family of deep thinkers.

What's the point of "talking" and "thinking" if you don't act on it, do something about it, make a change, create an opportunity and contribute to the better world?
It's just a waste of time and energy, it's not productive and it doesn't make you better than others.

My grandparents are simple people, who feed off their land that they cultivate and live on. I could judge them as being ignorant for not knowing about the political situation in the government, for not knowing the lobbyist and laws, for not knowing about the corruption in water/energy aggregation policy and could accuse them of making superficial choices when they cast their votes ... but that's because I'm involved in this world because of my career and lifestyle, not them, I have knowledge and motive to know those things and talk about it and do something about it. And if I don't do something about it, that's my ignorance.

So the real depth IMO is how people deal with the information they have, with the means they dispose of and with the opportunities that are available to them.

I may see Nick and Kaitlyn as 2 similar people in some regards, both deep thinkers for what is in their interest, but with 2 different lifestyles and therefor the priorities might not be aligned.
Kaitlyn choosing Shawn over Nick doesn't make her shallow, it just makes her a person who seeks a simple life, a companion who is aligned with her trajectory. And the world is complicated enough already, so I salute her decision.

happygolucky wrote:I believe Kaitlyn isn't shallow or superficial, but she is simple and there's a difference.
It all comes down to personal priorities and lifestyle. What's important to you and what power of control do you have, what knowledge you possess and what you do about it? Do you try to find a meaning, search for understanding of things that surround you?
I live in a culture where the usual "dinner conversation" would be about politics, economy, society&ordinance, environment, ... by "Ian's standards" we are a family of deep thinkers.

What's the point of "talking" and "thinking" if you don't act on it, do something about it, make a change, create an opportunity and contribute to the better world?
It's just a waste of time and energy, it's not productive and it doesn't make you better than others.

My grandparents are simple people, who feed off their land that they cultivate and live on. I could judge them as being ignorant for not knowing about the political situation in the government, for not knowing the lobbyist and laws, for not knowing about the corruption in water/energy aggregation policy and could accuse them of making superficial choices when they cast their votes ... but that's because I'm involved in this world because of my career and lifestyle, not them, I have knowledge and motive to know those things and talk about it and do something about it. And if I don't do something about it, that's my ignorance.

So the real depth IMO is how people deal with the information they have, with the means they dispose of and with the opportunities that are available to them.

I may see Nick and Kaitlyn as 2 similar people in some regards, both deep thinkers for what is in their interest, but with 2 different lifestyles and therefor the priorities might not be aligned.
Kaitlyn choosing Shawn over Nick doesn't make her shallow, it just makes her a person who seeks a simple life, a companion who is aligned with her trajectory. And the world is complicated enough already, so I salute her decision.

I am sorry if I came off as saying that Kaitlyn is shallow. I am sure she is very passionate about what she cares about, just that her scope of what she cares about is more limited then I think Nick's is. There is nothing wrong with that. I came into this season a big Kaitlyn fan. I admire her honesty and how she is who she wants to be and makes no apologies for that. I find her refreshing compared to the last two leads who were very much playing roles. So I don't mean it as a criticism, more that it is natural that she and Shawn seem to connect more than she and Nick might. I see Nick holding back on his more well rounded deeper side with Kaitlyn, to me he is almost in the anti-last year behavior mode. I think he is still being a good guy and I think he has been even more respectful this year to everyone else, but I do think he is focusing more on the here and now and the physical than he did last year. I think for him to be truly happy that he would need to be somewhere in the middle of this.

I complement Kaitlyn on picking out who would be better for her, that takes an incredible self-awareness. Especially when you can overlook such a strong physical attraction. I don't blame Kaitlyn that she and Nick ultimately aren't a good match. Rather I find it is just the way it is.

I was not a fan of the Kaitlyn match with Nick ever. I honestly didn't understand it. I admired him for following his heart and seeing that she is pretty incredible, but as she presents herself quite honestly, I just didn't see the Kaitlyn that we saw, and I felt really did get to know, being a great long term match with Nick. I think it is mutual. I think they would be a couple that once the sizzle died down would start to annoy each other and it would go both ways. Nick is not perfect or a saint either.

Stuck ... all good, I get your posts, you know I agree with you, though, you are much more passionate than me in most topics, while I'm super focused on Nick and probably I'm already annoying to all of you, since that's all I write about. Nick, women's rights are my main ticks.  But don't get me started on water, pollution and health care (I become really infuriating).
Actually I wasn't responding to anyone, just wanted to write my own take on the whole "Ian's POV about deeper people" (and I didn't want to do it in his thread, because like with Kelsey last Bach, I don't like the prejudiced minds who think they are above the rest) and I have to admit that I did write to someone privately saying that Kaitlyn isn't one of smartest cookies, so take it as my own retraction. I need to be fair and say that simply her interests are different from mine.

happygolucky wrote:Stuck ... all good, I get your posts, you know I agree with you, though, you are much more passionate than me in most topics, while I'm super focused on Nick and probably I'm already annoying to all of you, since that's all I write about. Nick, women's rights are my main ticks.  But don't get me started on water, pollution and health care (I become really infuriating).
Actually I wasn't responding to anyone, just wanted to write my own take on the whole "Ian's POV about deeper people" (and I didn't want to do it in his thread, because like with Kelsey last Bach, I don't like the prejudiced minds who think they are above the rest) and I have to admit that I did write to someone privately saying that Kaitlyn isn't one of smartest cookies, so take it as my own retraction. I need to be fair and say that simply her interests are different from mine.

I thought Ian was a huge jerk, you might want to go to his thread, just to read my post about him.

I overall like Kaitlyn, I just am frustrated with the re-writing history act. I guess I don't get it. Des didn't have to fake that she never said ILY to Brooks, Chris was strong enough in their relationship to handle it. Ashley was strongly rumored to have slept with Ben, and this would be after she told JP ILY, since we know she said it first, yet JP was secure in that Ashley chose him. Even Cat had to deal with Sean almost sending her home at F4 and telling Lindsey that he loved her, but she was okay again because Shawn chose her. It seems like the best relationships to come out of this show, the F1 realizes that whatever happened on the show isn't important, it is the after and the being chosen. So I get frustrated when in season the lead lessens the connection with someone else. I get that Kaitlyn is sick of talking about pre-FS sex, but then maybe she should have waited. When you do something that is that obvious and your main storyline is how free you are with yourself, you set yourself to answer those questions again and again. Des had to put up with everyone and their brother asking about Brooks and predicting she and Chris would never last. She faced it and didn't pretend that she hadn't acted the way she did. I admire Kaitlyn's honesty and this feels kind of dishonest to me. For whatever reason she is doing it, Shawn or herself, it seems a little unfair. IMO.

chasingpavements wrote:

Max64 wrote:I just can't seem to wrap my head around the fact that K had a date with Shawn, told him he was the one, next week had a date with N, had sex with him, cries and whines that she's remorseful about it but yet still keeps N only to have sex with him again in the FS, takes him to f2 only to let him propose to then be rejected, and then gets engaged to Shawn.

For me, there are two explanations for that:

1) Producer influence - they could have told her that if she had sex with Nick and then didn't even bring him to her final two, she would have gotten sl*t-shamed way worse than she is now. Because, then she didn't have sex with a guy that she was falling in love with and considering marrying, she simply had a hook-up because she was horny even though she was in love with someone else.

CP you're starting to worry me because you're thinking too much like a producer

Here's my take and it's less about how the producers might have gotten what they wanted and more about what they wanted and why they wanted it.

They knew before filming started that they wanted to put Nick on the show as a late arrival. Why Nick? - because he creates drama and controversy within the house. Why late? - because a late arrival creates drama and controversy in the house no matter who it is. So they just doubled down on the bet. They also knew that they wanted Nick to stay at least to F2 even if Kaitlyn wanted someone else as F1. Why F2? - because Nick has a past history as a loose canon and a track record of chasing the lead even after she picks someone else - there's no better way to create drama that will remain unresolved until the lead meets with F2 on the ATFR (where anything could happen) than to bring an F2  with a history of creating drama to the ATFR.

IMO the producers will sweet talk, lie, or threaten to get the lead and the cast to do what they want so exactly how they did this is less important than considering what they wanted - they will do whatever it takes to get it. Seems to me like they got what they wanted - Nick as F2.

JMO

Max64 wrote:I just can't seem to wrap my head around the fact that K had a date with Shawn, told him he was the one, next week had a date with N, had sex with him, cries and whines that she's remorseful about it but yet still keeps N only to have sex with him again in the FS, takes him to f2 only to let him propose to then be rejected, and then gets engaged to Shawn.  And Nick was her friend prior to filming?   Great way to treat your friends.

If K felt so horrible about having sex with N and that it was a mistake, why keep him?  Quite honestly, how could Shawn really trust Kaitlyn after all that.  I know she doesn't owe him anything, but getting wrapped up in the moment and having sex once, understandable given the circumstances, but to continue with it..that would be a tough one for anyone to choke down.

One of the mantras I live by is "Fool me once shame on you. Fool me twice shame on me." 
I try not to complicate things and to keep it simple. Sometimes things are what they are. 
Good luck Shawn.