Nick Viall - Bachelorette 11 - *Spoilers - Sleuthing* - Discussion #5

Moving from fan thread...

TopShelf wrote:I keep hearing Shawn fans talk about him as the Alpha male.  I think Nick is the Alpha male.  Brooding and Anger don't make the Alpha male.  It's brains, attraction, quiet confidence and power, coming out on top that defines the Bachelorette Alpha male.   Just because you pump weights for a living and refuse to say someone's name, doesn't make you powerful and Alpha.
Not a convo Id normally have but I'm reading a lot about this and want to know Nick fans opinions, isn't Nick clearly the Alpha male in this bubble?  Most seem intimidated by him. And jealous.

Alpha males can be determined in a pack group. So this means, who is the big shot so to speak in a room full of guys? Who, in that room, are most of the guys liking not disliking and even if they dislike the person secretly they won't show this openly.

Thus the alpha can be seen as the person the pack will go along with and be his wingman even, they will be a support whether indirectly or directly and will inadvertently cause the female to get closer to the alpha male.

A lone wolf will be an outsider, and thus not embraced/trusted by the pack because the packs loyalty lies mostly with their alpha and thus you won't see the guys questioning the alpha but they will question the lone wolf.

In this case, Shawn is the alpha and Nick is the lone wolf, so to speak. If the alpha doesn't embrace the lone wolf and the lone wolf doesn't want to be submissive to the alpha then the pack will have to show their loyalty even more by siding with the alpha openly.

jmo

AllAboutLove wrote:In this case, Shawn is the alpha and Nick is the lone wolf, so to speak. If the alpha doesn't embrace the lone wolf and the lone wolf doesn't want to be submissive to the alpha then the pack will have to show their loyalty even more by siding with the alpha openly.

jmo

Again IMO well reasoned and stated. Put Nick in with a group of guys and he is not going to be the alpha. That's not to say there aren't women out there who are attracted to him - or at least to the man they see in the edit - because there are.

I do think you made a good point upthread that in The Bachelor it's the women who bring the drama - not the lead. I said last season that it was my opinion that Nick wanted to be The Bachelor and everyone sort of jumped on me that it wasn't what he wanted but I'm going to say it again. Nick clings on the periphery of the franchise hoping that sooner or later he'll get to be The Bachelor because as the lead with 25 women chasing him. he'll get a woman at the end. And he probably would in that situation, and they would have just as much a chance of success as any other couple from the show - slim but not none. He just needs to stay away from the competitive situation of TBette when the lead is someone attracted to alpha.

^^ To respond to your post Lucas. I personally would find Nick as an interesting Bachelor, RS said in one of his blogs that there were two reasons he didn't think Nick would be the Bachelor
a) (main reason) TPTB wouldn't want him as he isn't liked enough nor fits their mold but then again Kaitlyn didn't fit the mold as well.
b) he didn't think Nick would want it or said that wasn't why he came on the show.

Now RS could obviously be wrong about Nick not wanting it just thought it was interesting to note

I think Nick would be a great TB...and I don't think it wouldn't take much for him to sign the dotted line. Anyone that goes on this show or any semblance of this show TWICE has some desire for fame. And that includes every recycled lead they've had, imo. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that either. I know many of his fans have mixed opinions on him being TB...from a purely TV standpoint I'd love to see it. I think he'd be GREAT in that role...I would love to see what kind of woman he'd go after...and I think TPTB would get incredible ratings (think of all the "fiancé type stuff" scenes they'd get). And really...he can't be any worse than the last two bachelor's they've had.

leselihau wrote:I think Nick would be a great TB...and I don't think it wouldn't take much for him to sign the dotted line.

I have no real idea if they would ever offer it to him but if they offered it to him and he just happened to call me on the phone for advice, I would advise him not to do it. The reason is I don't think the producers like him though that doesn't stop them from using him or taking advantage of him. Even a lead they like ends up looking somewhat bad and if they don't like the lead he ends up looking real bad. IMO they did not like Ben and Ben's reward was they gave his F1 a villain edit.

Well, AAL I must compliment you for making a very good case why THe Bachelor would be a better format for Nick ... something I never thought of.
But I do believe that train has passed. And not this round... it passed long time ago ... when Nick actually fell for SWSNBN's charms ...

so to respond to Lucas ... I'm not gonna fight against that maybe Nick had initial idea for TB before Bette10 started - though there's 1 problem I consider that would scratch that idea: Nick not being "handsome" enough for general public's opinion - because I don't know for sure ... but I believe he honestly fell in love and wasn't thinking of that during the show (or at least from 3rd episode) ... and then the famous storyboard/edit came into play - the arrogant/strategizing one - that was done before the video-gate ... and then the slap-in-the-face break-up ... and another additional storyboard/edit after the plane video - the creep/stalker one ... and if there was ever a thought of being the bachelor it is all a distant memory.

I say why not to TB. If you're liked, you will be hated, if you're hated, you're already there.

IMO he should have the same opportunity every one has had. There were several leads that I didn't care for that were on my screen more than one season.

There are other contestants on my screen that I don't care for that won't go away. Clare Michelle etc on and on. There are some on BIP this season that will be their 3rd appearance. It's like the engergizer bunny.

Lucas15 wrote:

leselihau wrote:I think Nick would be a great TB...and I don't think it wouldn't take much for him to sign the dotted line.

I have no real idea if they would ever offer it to him but if they offered it to him and he just happened to call me on the phone for advice, I would advise him not to do it. The reason is I don't think the producers like him though that doesn't stop them from using him or taking advantage of him. Even a lead they like ends up looking somewhat bad and if they don't like the lead he ends up looking real bad. IMO they did not like Ben and Ben's reward was they gave his F1 a villain edit.

I don't think Nick cares about looking real bad.
Can't say it enough, he is a lone wolf because he thrives on being his own person.
He doesn't need people to think of him as a good or bad because he is secure with who he is as a person.
Like his bio says... "My opinions are my own. Some like them.. some don't. I'm ok with that."

People that prefer the pack mentality (which is the norm in society) have a hard time figuring out guys like Nick.
And most real-life alpha males would probably not like him, will be suspicious of him, or think he is a "wannabe" alpha.
Women on the other hand? They are either driven to dislike him because of this pack mentality giving social cues or, as seems to be the case, when they meet Nick in person, they like him. Funny how that is. jmoaa

Hotmomma wrote:I don't think Chris H threw Nick under the bus .he even states Kaitlyn likes it.

I'll take it one step further of their dynamic...he said "like a moth to a flame"... And that's exactly what I'm seeing play out on my TV. The guys other than S according to SM grew to like him. CH lived in the era they didnt..

By the way...who are N brothers and sisters to the North? Has be always thought to remember their day? I wondered who of the 3 was going to surface first with the long holiday weekend.

GuardianAngel wrote:I say why not to TB. If you're liked, you will be hated, if you're hated, you're already there.

IMO he should have the same opportunity every one has had. There were several leads that I didn't care for that were on my screen more than one season.

There are other contestants on my screen that I don't care for that won't go away. Clare Michelle etc on and on. There are some on BIP this season that will be their 3rd appearance. It's like the engergizer bunny.

And for some it will be more than their 3rd appearance... *coughChrisBcough*

mprssdbyu wrote:

Hotmomma wrote:I don't think Chris H threw Nick under the bus .he even states Kaitlyn likes it.

I'll take it one step further of their dynamic...he said "like a moth to a flame"... And that's exactly what I'm seeing play out on my TV. The guys other than S according to SM grew to like him. CH lived in the era they didnt..

This is on point.  

Other than the F1, the guys have no issue with Nick. If they do, it will likely be only when they are defending the F1/lead or having to take a "side" so to speak on MTA. That doesn't mean they don't like Nick. It just means they will look bad if they choose Nick over Shawn whom Kaitlyn chose.

How the guys behave on their own outside the show is what matters. Even Ben H likes posts by Nick and he is considered the good guy, mature, gentleman-like on the show. He may be loyal to the F1/lead for his own reasons but they are not reasons enough for dislike of Nick.

That is what I find so funny about people that dislike Nick... they usually dislike him because ultimately they are loyal to the lead (female Bette) or are loyal to the F1. I have yet to see anyone actually present some evidence for Nick being disliked for who he is. jmo

edited
to say:

I think that most people care to a certain extent about how they look, and imo Nick affirmed that he does care this last episode, when he commented to Kaitlyn about how he was perceived last time. Does that mean that he's not secure as a person, no, absolutely not. I'm secure as a person and I have strong opinions, but I still care how people perceive me. If people perceive me to be a bitch I probably need to take a look at what it is about me that makes people perceive me that way. Can I be a bitch? Sure....a big one sometimes. But that's not who I am in general as a person and I don't want the world as a whole to think that about me. That doesn't make me insecure...it makes me self-aware, imo.

It's one thing to not let other people's opinions of you affect your day to day life. But I think it takes a very strong person to own their actions and do some self-reflection and try to become a better person after going through a show like this and I happen to believe that Nick probably did that. I'm not in any shape or form trying to say that who Nick was before was bad, not at all...I just happen to believe that we can all be better people in general.[/