Nick Viall - Bachelorette 11 - *Spoilers - Sleuthing* - Discussion #5

BKay wrote:

rosesrREd wrote:

OnePromise wrote:Yes. Please.  I would like the see fun K with Nick again.  Just fun K in general would be good.  The episodes have been so heavy and exhausting to watch... I can't imagine what it felt like to live it.  And I'm not even an emotional person.

If we only see Kaitlyn in love with Shawn I will be suspicious of the spoiled ending...
Would they really hand the ending so clearly to the audience with three weeks left?

I said that at the beginning when we heard K say she was falling in love with Shawn. They usually don't let that slip from lead so early on, and it had me questioning everything. It could just be foreshadowing to what we are seeing now with Shawn, or maybe something else.

Has anyone else thought they made Nick go to the show this season as a payback for the airplane video?

I've said this several times in the threads, but it isn't a very popular theory. I can't shake the idea though.

About seeing Kaitlyn so in love - I don't think the average viewer knows all the inside info we do, probably didn't hear about snapchatgate. If I didn't know better, just watching the show, I would think Shawn won't make it to the end, that he'll blow it with her or get tired of it and leave on his own. (the Brooks edit)  I'd think she might pick Nick, or no one. That's what the edit is trying to sell right now, imo.

I think that's TPTB's new plan - to make the F1 SO freaking obvious that everyone thinks "oh, that's too obvious. Must be someone else". That's why I was a little doubtful that it was Whitney, even though every single clue pointed to her. Same with Josh and Nikki.

I honestly liked it better when there was a little suspense. I'm guessing we will see more pro-Nick/Kaitlyn scenes in the next few weeks, but this episode just made it very obvious that Kaitlyn wanted the show to be over so she could go and be with Shawn.

OOh sorry BKay. Yes that makes perfect sense!

TopShelf wrote:

chasingpavements wrote:

emusha wrote:I think as soon as K started grilling him about telling on her Nick knew that he was not top priority the same way he knew he was likely not top priority cos of the speech K gave at the beginning of the cocktail party. at least on the subconscious level I think that's why he cried...I think we then saw him talk himself back into remembering that if he's really going to give any of it a shot he has to go forward even while being scared just hoping that she can meet him where he was going...

Yup, I agree. He came into that conversation and was like "I just want to make sure you're okay and I'm feeling very vulnerable right now" and she responds to that by basically going "Don't tell anyone about that horrible mistake I made with you". How can you even develop a relationship with someone who has that little trust in you and thinks that you're of such weak character? I do think that she was just checked out and emotionally exhausted that week, because she didn't show too mush emotion in her conversations with Ben or Shawn at the cocktail party either, but still, it must have sucked.

It will be interesting to see if we NY Nick/Kaitlyn again or if it's totally obvious she only has eyes for Shawn after this week.

Sometimes I think I'm watching a different show.  I didn't see any that you talk about above.  I think she asked him what was on her mind, that she worried he would elude to their all night date and it would ruin her other relationships.  He said no he didn't, and he wouldn't, and she seemed to believe him.  The mistake she referred to early in the night was leading Shawn on so much and calling him "the one."  She wasn't regretting sex with Nick at this point, just that he might tell the other guys, and who wouldn't worry about that?  What I saw from this convo was a very vulnerable Nick, and a receptive Kaitlyn holding his hand, giving him a kiss or two, and who described their night together as "perfect."  What could be more flattering than that?  

I think that she has referred to it as a mistake in ITMs, but, I agree that she never actually said that word to Nick. It's just the vibe that I got. When she was saying "our date was perfect", I didn't feel like she actually meant it, like she meant the things she said to him on their 1-on-1. I almost felt like she was placating before she brought up the sex question. I feel like the fact that she was worried about Nick telling the guys about sex, but NEVER once mentioned being worried about Shawn telling the guys about the "I'm falling in love with you"/"you're the one" shows that she doesn't trust Nick in the same way she trusts Shawn. She even mentioned in her blog that Nick was super offended by that question, as he should be! For her to think that he's such a bro who's like "I banged the Bachelorette before all you!" means that she doesn't trust him the way she needs to.

And, again, it's just the vibe that I got. I said before that I think Kaitlyn was just emotionally tired that week, so that might just be it, but I didn't see the same compassion she had for Shawn when he was upset. Nick's in tears because he's scared to death of losing her and she doesn't do anything, except keep on holding his hand. HE has to ask for a kiss. Whereas, with Shawn, she leaned up to him immediately and kissed him and was almost in tears at the thought of him being upset.

BKay wrote:

rosesrREd wrote:

OnePromise wrote:Yes. Please.  I would like the see fun K with Nick again.  Just fun K in general would be good.  The episodes have been so heavy and exhausting to watch... I can't imagine what it felt like to live it.  And I'm not even an emotional person.

If we only see Kaitlyn in love with Shawn I will be suspicious of the spoiled ending...
Would they really hand the ending so clearly to the audience with three weeks left?

I said that at the beginning when we heard K say she was falling in love with Shawn. They usually don't let that slip from lead so early on, and it had me questioning everything. It could just be foreshadowing to what we are seeing now with Shawn, or maybe something else.

Has anyone else thought they made Nick go to the show this season as a payback for the airplane video?

I've said this several times in the threads, but it isn't a very popular theory. I can't shake the idea though.

About seeing Kaitlyn so in love - I don't think the average viewer knows all the inside info we do, probably didn't hear about snapchatgate. If I didn't know better, just watching the show, I would think Shawn won't make it to the end, that he'll blow it with her or get tired of it and leave on his own. (the Brooks edit)  I'd think she might pick Nick, or no one. That's what the edit is trying to sell right now, imo.

I think it is a combination of Nick liking K, and then the producers taking advantage of that and telling him he has to make up for the plane video. I think that there a lot of consistencies with the reasons for coming on that Nick has explained on the show so I don't believe he is acting or faking anything.

His previous season was spoiled well before planegate IMO. Snapchatgate is much worse than the plane vid. I don't think he was pushed into a position where he had to do this. I think he truly went on to peruse K and the possibility of something more than SM flirting.

GuardianAngel wrote:His previous season was spoiled well before planegate IMO. Snapchatgate is much worse than the plane vid. I don't think he was pushed into a position where he had to do this. I think he truly went on to peruse K and the possibility of something more than SM flirting.

I agree. Both Nick and Kaitlyn are HORRIBLE actors, so I don't think they could fake that chemistry that they had in NY and Dublin. And, a radio host even said that she had heard that Nick was "obsessed" with Kaitlyn, so I think it was decision because he truly was into her. I'm sure TPTB LOVED it and did everything to make sure it happened, but I don't think they forced it at all.

I think Nick really did like Kaitlyn and want the chance to be with her. but I hope he sees that she doesn't care for him and starts to heal during the show and that the proposal is just because TPTB made him.

I've decided not to watch the previews anymore because I really don't care about the show, but I've read the comments on epi.7 and epi.8, and what strikes me as interesting is Nick's opinion of Shawn. I don't know what happened and what is going to ... but considering that Nick actually really liked Josh M., they even struck a friendship that "unfortunately" burnt to the ground once The Girl got in between, and I believe he was overall OK with the choice "SWSNBN" made (despite the "disrespectful" outing) and wished Josh the best. This time around he doesn't like Shawn (and I don't blame him considering Shawn's attitude towards Nick) ... so I'm curious how he views/perceives Kaitlyn and her choice?

OnePromise wrote:Would they really hand the ending so clearly to the audience with three weeks left?

It may seem strange but so many things this season were premature - so why not the ending?

chasingpavements wrote:but this episode just made it very obvious that Kaitlyn wanted the show to be over so she could go and be with Shawn.

IMO the show tries to keep the lead from falling so deeply for one person throughout much of the season; they only want that to happen just before the end. They also want the F1 to be at least "off-balance" and questioning where he/she stands, and the F2 to be overly confident and convinced they know where they stand. The combination gives dramatic heartbreak for F2, and elation for F1 at the FRC and that's sort of the standard formula. IMO the problem production faced this season was all those things happened too soon. While I believe that the "acceleration" of some parts of the traditional sequence was something Kaitlyn wanted I also think that this season things just moved too quickly and the show realized the best way to handle the ending was to accelerate the timing the best way they could.

happydays wrote:

It starts with him participating in this show again

Maybe to give some insight to the bolded, I was in a very similar situation to Nick where I grew close to someone without ever meeting them. It is definitely a 'where have you been?' sort of feeling, that they came out of nowhere but things are so natural with them and they complete you in a way. An image is definitely built up in your brain of the person and I definitely understand his need to go after a person who feels like they can be the one.

However, I've learned that being close to a person without meeting them and becoming close to them having been in their presence are two totally different things. When you meet them at the start, it seems perfect, but you learn so many more things about them later that it starts to wear off. In this situation, I would have hoped for Nick to meet up with K a couple of times before the show to really understand if he wants to dive in this circus again.

happydays thanks for sharing your experience in this regard - it really helps me to better relate to the dynamic. I think of the lyrics to the Brad Paisley song "Online" - we project a "cool online persona" that's how we want others to see us but we are much more than what we project. We probably don't project that we are really fat, dumpy and bald even though we may be. While it wasn't an online relationship I can relate all too well to how you can build up an image in your brain and develop an intense attraction to the image - but when you really get to know the person you realize they are completely different than your very idealized imagination.

IMO it's very possible that Nick wasn't who Kaitlyn thought he was and Kaitlyn wasn't who Nick thought she was and they could have figured that out if they had met earlier but they didn't get the chance.

happygolucky wrote:considering that Nick actually really liked Josh M., they even struck a friendship that "unfortunately" burnt to the ground once The Girl got in between, and I believe he was overall OK with the choice "SWSNBN" made (despite the "disrespectful" outing) and wished Josh the best. This time around he doesn't like Shawn (and I don't blame him considering Shawn's attitude towards Nick) ... so I'm curious how he views/perceives Kaitlyn and her choice?

It's just my opinion but I don't expect everyone who crosses paths on this show is going to end up around a campfire toasting marshmallows and singing Kumbaya. Maybe the girl got in the way between Josh and Nick, maybe Josh watched the plane video, maybe they just had noting more in common and no reason to share a friendship.

IMO though - for however long it lasts Kaitlyn and Shawn are a couple and I would expect them to either share feelings about others, or respect the others opinion even if they may not totally share it. If Shawn doesn't like Nick I believe some of that is going to rub off on Kaitlyn - as it should if she's with Shawn. I don't draw people into my marriage that I know my wife doesn't like; it's got nothing to do with her "control" over me and everything to do with my control over me and the love I share with her. I don't do it because I don't want to - not because I have to.

Lucas15 wrote:

happydays wrote:

It starts with him participating in this show again

Maybe to give some insight to the bolded, I was in a very similar situation to Nick where I grew close to someone without ever meeting them. It is definitely a 'where have you been?' sort of feeling, that they came out of nowhere but things are so natural with them and they complete you in a way. An image is definitely built up in your brain of the person and I definitely understand his need to go after a person who feels like they can be the one.

However, I've learned that being close to a person without meeting them and becoming close to them having been in their presence are two totally different things. When you meet them at the start, it seems perfect, but you learn so many more things about them later that it starts to wear off. In this situation, I would have hoped for Nick to meet up with K a couple of times before the show to really understand if he wants to dive in this circus again.

happydays thanks for sharing your experience in this regard - it really helps me to better relate to the dynamic. I think of the lyrics to the Brad Paisley song "Online" - we project a "cool online persona" that's how we want others to see us but we are much more than what we project. We probably don't project that we are really fat, dumpy and bald even though we may be. While it wasn't an online relationship I can relate all too well to how you can build up an image in your brain and develop an intense attraction to the image - but when you really get to know the person you realize they are completely different than your very idealized imagination.

IMO it's very possible that Nick wasn't who Kaitlyn thought he was and Kaitlyn wasn't who Nick thought she was and they could have figured that out if they had met earlier but they didn't get the chance.

Glad to share my experience. I definitely feel like I can relate to Nick this season, and while all this sleuthing sometimes makes me think he is completely crazy and might have other reasons for diving into this circus, I can definitely understand & see the sincerity behind his stated reasons for joining.

I've underlined that last sentence that you've stated. If anyone here has watched catfish, it is extremely easy to project one side of yourself when texting/typing, and even talking on the phone. And I think that that can be sustained when you meet them as well, at first. You can never fully understand and know the many sides of that person in their entirety without having met them and been in their presence. So yes, while Nick has talked to K beforehand, I still believe that him coming in later is a disadvantage. And he only knows the side to K which she has shown him, and vice versa as well -- there can also be a natural inclination towards acting the way that was previously projected as that was what they were attracted to in each other, rather than the person as a whole. I definitely agree with those who say she is more real and herself with Shawn because that is exactly what I see. She seems more girly and feminine with Nick and a bit more deep, but from her social media, I've gathered that her everyday self is not really the right match for Nick and they wouldn't be a good fit long-term.