Re: The Bachelorette 11 - Kaitlyn Bristowe - Epi 6 Jun 22nd - *Sleuthing - Spoilers* thread #2

[OnePromise]

 Shawn can you hold the trust?!  wow that's a lot to ask a man.  Do it Kaitlin!! run Shawn through the Fire of Faith.  Test him til he drops.  Reel him back in, then bang someone else...see if he runs. (is that a "snark"?)..trying to learn here.

Reel him in... . Yup, you are getting the hang of snark. It's either that or fairy tales that more often than not end in tears.

I definately see this happening and Shawn couldn't take it anymore. As he said in his own words to the producer. I think that the change up that CH brings to the guys and Kaitlyn is that she has to eliminate guys faster...if she is not seeing a future with them, they are gone. In the preview CH says you have to go from six to three this week. They make it look like production/CH had the idea, but I think that it was Shawn pushing Kaitlyn that caused the change. He was getting ready to walk out and she "didn't want to do this anymore". And without Shawn, they didn't have a show. It would no longer be the Shawn versus Nick show...it would just be Nick. No more drama. And maybe she would end up with no one in the end.

[agentcurls]

^I agree, and welcome, beachdog 1!

Finally watched this epi, and I have to say, I think everyone was pretty civil to Nick, even if they didn't like his presence there. I can see why it made them uneasy. Nick was gregarious, fairly disarming and likeable from the start, which probably made them even more uncomfortable. I can def see the mystique surrounding Nick that strikes K's fancy. I'm actually glad she explored something with him because it will bring her closer to her relationship destiny.
While others see a angry, jealous, & possessive Shawn, I see a bit of a big teddy-bear, who is probably more vulnerable than he has ever been, and scared. When people are fearful, those feelings in the inside can manifest themselves as anger and resentment on the outside. Not pretty to see and hear, but IMO, I would prefer that to some of the indifference the other guys are demonstrating, but that's just me.

[OnePromise]

Does anyone else think it strange that we have yet to hear what Nick thinks about the pre-FS sex? They showed Kaitlyn's reaction filmed from behind a tree...not the most open and honest interview. And what Nick told the guys. But not any interviewed reaction from Nick. We still have not gotten a clear picture from Nick (or Kaitlyn) what they think about it. Just a lot of clipped footage about possible crying from Kaitlyn...that could honestly be about pretty much anything. And a bunch of angry, crying guys...again they may not even know what happened... The majority of the story has yet to be told IMO.

[Lucas15]

Hi.  I'm late to this episode discussion, too.  It was surprising how well Nick seduces Kaitlin...  what he says, when he says, how he says it all.  very adept.  all the right words.  all the right moves.

First - welcome to the party and thanks for your contribution. I don't know (nor do I care) if you're a man or a woman but if a woman, you're one of a somewhat select group that can spot a player's MO very quickly. Many women can't see what to me (I'm a guy) is obvious. But then, I can't see manipulative women as clearly as my wife does. IMO one reason for this is one of my college roommates was a player - he had sex with more women in one semester than I've had in my entire life so while I learned the lines and saw how they worked - I never used them. My wife's college roommate was a manipulator and she saw all the strategies and lines she used on guys - but like me - my wife never used the lines even though she knew them.

IMO at some point in their lives, most guys learn how to seduce women and most women learn how to manipulate guys. Whether they choose to do so depends on the woman and the guy. Because they know the lines and techniques most guys will see when a guy is trying to play a woman (and most women will see if a woman is trying to manipulate a guy) and this is one factor in why Nick is disruptive when he competes with a bunch of other guys for one woman. Whether it's true or not, some guys are going to perceive Nick is just a player because they see the attitudes and thought process of a player. Take Nick away from the competition over a woman and those same guys can be friends and hang out with him - maybe they just want to learn a few more lines - or at least in that setting they aren't competing. Competing against Nick and having a beer with Nick are two totally different things.

JMO

I might be wrong, but didn't Shawn say to the production crew man that :
he had spent off camera time with Kaitlin (did she have an intimate moment with Shawn before Nick arrived on the scene? yes.), that she told him "he is the one", then he hears she banged two other guys (what is a guy to believe?).  He's getting mixed messages here.  That intimate time meant something to him.  He didn't feel it to be a one night stand or a "test drive".  That was the most important conversation of the whole episode.  
    I wonder if being a petite woman, Kaitlin needs to know if sex is physically comfortable with the companion.  
    How does this play out?  
   

Again you've touched on several things that have crossed my mind as well. First I was not under the impression that Shawn's comment about "banging two other guys" was something he thought had happened, or something he thought would happen in the FS - I felt at the time it was the latter. But yes - Shawn is getting mixed messages from Kaitlyn and Kaitlyn is sending mixed messages to Shawn. To tell a guy "you're the one" and then seek to spend time with someone else when she could have spent time with him (or so he would believe) is very much a mixed message. And the situation here is not over the sex with Nick - it's over the GD rose she gave to Jared that from Shawn's view she could have given to him - but didn't. That's certainly a mixed message. It's also a mixed message if she told him "you're the one" and then allows Nick to join the show to see if Nick might be the one - or at least that's how Shawn could logically (IMO) see that decision.

And - that conversation Shawn had with the producer is the most important conversation we've seen so far and two additional aspects are important here. One is that he told the producer "I love the girl" and that's not baby steps for one guy to tell another guy - that's a big leap to shed the "macho image" that guys like to maintain in front of other guys. The second thing Shawn said was "I feel like crying" which takes the shedding of that macho image to another level. And all this happened when Shawn believed he was not on camera - he left the other guys specifically to get away from the cameras (or so he thought) - so Shawn was being himself there more so than doing something "for the camera".

Again - all JMO

ETA with regard to your comment "I wonder if being a petite woman, Kaitlin needs to know if sex is physically comfortable with the companion." that's something I too have wondered. Kaitlyn has repeatedly said how important the physical is to her and that's why sex is something she needs to experience in determining compatibility. Whether it's the size of the pen or the calligraphy that it writes is a personal detail I don't know nor do I want to know - but I can understand why it's something Kaitlyn feels a need to know.

[glazedover]

@beachdog1 wrote:
"Hi.  I'm late to this episode discussion, too.  It was surprising how well Nick seduces Kaitlin...  what he says, when he says, how he says it all.  very adept.  all the right words.  all the right moves."

Yes, I agree. When I heard "I want to know every part of you" the red flag popped up and waved around quite a bit! Right out of a romance novel, geared to make a girl swoon. Really tacky IMO. And I am not a Nick "hater" at all. But he really did know how to move right in and that, coupled with the fact that he knows how this show works, speaks to me of an ulterior motive, not his feelings for K.

[Alanna]

Kaitlyn is a 30 year old woman who fell for lines and gestures meant for an 18 year old girl that's out at college for the first time and meets a cute senior. Pretty simple. Forever young, that's our Kait.

[Guest]

Snipped

And - that conversation Shawn had with the producer is the most important conversation we've seen so far and two additional aspects are important here. One is that he told the producer "I love the girl" and that's not baby steps for one guy to tell another guy - that's a big leap to shed the "macho image" that guys like to maintain in front of other guys. The second thing Shawn said was "I feel like crying" which takes the shedding of that macho image to another level. And all this happened when Shawn believed he was not on camera - he left the other guys specifically to get away from the cameras (or so he thought) - so Shawn was being himself there more so than doing something "for the camera".

Again - all JMO

Lucas , love your insights.  Especially glad you said the bolded.  That scene made me like Shawn more and get more attached to Shawn as a character and I've been surprised at the overly negative reaction it has had here.
To me that was a guy trying not to make a public scene so seeking a private confidant to release his emotions.  I found it to be a really raw, honest, totally spontaneous outpouring of man-emotions.  Not something many men do lightly.  I thought it just showed he's a goner for her and is overwhelmed by his feelings, not a sign of his "issues".

Also, So far both Kaitlyn and Shawn have been shown during times they probably weren't aware they were "filming" in moments I'm sure no one would expect would air based on the show's usual MO. I wonder why TPTB decided this season to include these non-typical show moments.  Because of what happened and they needed to create a story, or a conscious decision before the show to open things up a bit and try something different.

[Guest]

Kaitlyn is a 30 year old woman who fell for lines and gestures meant for an 18 year old girl that's out at college for the first time and meets a cute senior. Pretty simple. Forever young, that's our Kait.

On Nick's whole date she seems like a college girl, pure 22 year old to me, and on Shawn's one and one more of a grown up woman as she keeps claiming to be.

(Sorry for the double post)

[Kashathediva]

Kaitlyn is a 30 year old woman who fell for lines and gestures meant for an 18 year old girl that's out at college for the first time and meets a cute senior. Pretty simple. Forever young, that's our Kait.

I also wonder if and how much of certain lines are "scripted".

[Lucas15]

That scene made me like Shawn more and get more attached to Shawn as a character and I've been surprised at the overly negative reaction it has had here.
To me that was a guy trying not to make a public scene so seeking a private confidant to release his emotions.  I found it to be a really raw, honest, totally spontaneous outpouring of man-emotions.  Not something many men do lightly.  I thought it just showed he's a goner for her and is overwhelmed by his feelings, not a sign of his "issues".

That's very difficult for a man to do especially in front of another man. Shawn's character seems to me to be an alpha male - at the very least Kaitlyn's attraction to him is very much that of an attraction to an alpha male - especially as seen in her "I love his smell" statements because pheromones are very much an instinctive sort of attraction. But he's not the typical alpha because he's also shown a sensitive emotional side. Very interesting character development and IMO very hard to have been totally planned.

I wonder why TPTB decided this season to include these non-typical show moments.  Because of what happened and they needed to create a story, or a conscious decision before the show to open things up a bit and try something different.

Maybe some of both. I'm sure they had a storyboard and a cast initially planned to create drama but I think that was put together before they ever started filming. They probably had no way of knowing that Kaitlyn would be instantly attracted to Shawn even though they might have known Shawn was her "type". Once the cameras were rolling and people started doing things they started to get a story they couldn't have planned and they just set about telling it. These atypical scenes are really a necessary part of what seems to be this season's story and I think they're just going with it.

JMO

[Lucas15]

I also wonder if and how much of certain lines are "scripted".

IMO past experience suggests a lot of / most of what people say is "scripted" - or planted. For example a lot of posters have commented on Shawn's use of the phrase "that guy" when referring to Nick though I never was put off by that. All the producers have to do is film some ITM's with Shawn talking about Nick and instead of them using his name "Nick" they refer to him as "that guy" and the next thing you know - Shawn is also referring to Nick as "that guy". The powers of suggestion coming from an authority figure are very compelling.

It does get harder to manipulate lines said in a more organic dialog between two people though and it may depend on what's said and in what context. IMO it would be harder to get Nick to say "I want to know all of you" once he would be alone with Kaitlyn - and undressing.

[Ash2214]

Kaitlyn is a 30 year old woman who fell for lines and gestures meant for an 18 year old girl that's out at college for the first time and meets a cute senior. Pretty simple. Forever young, that's our Kait.

What's funny to me is that in one of Kaitlyn's recent interviews she was asked about Nick or whatever and she  straight up said he's a flirt. Also, in the past couple of episodes, she's described him as passionate and makes a woman feel desired, which is similar to what was said a year ago by a different lead. He's good with his words and has no issue using the physical card. Some women wouldn't fall for it and others do, but I don't think it's a coincidence that each time Nick gets the physical edit and mostly comments about physical attraction.

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