Kaitlyn Bristowe - Shawn Booth - Bachelorette 11 - *Spoilers - Sleuthing* - Discussion

Lucas15 wrote:

chasingpavements wrote:Interesting points. I actually disagree a bit because I think that Nick/Kaitlyn have already mastered the friendship/emotional intimacy aspect, far more than any couple who only spends time together during filming (which is like, what, 48 hours total?) can build. Remember, Kaitlyn herself wrote that she and Nick were the "closest two people can be without ever meeting" and that he was her "go-to person for advice". To me, that suggests that they already had that strong friendship and emotional intimacy.

If in fact Kaitlyn and Nick had already mastered communications then that would seem to me to make Nick the easier option - not the harder one.

I think that it's partly the reason that their sexual chemistry IS so strong, because it's not just based on physical attraction but an emotional connection.

That SHOULD have made him a shoe-in for F1. But IMO it didn't because I don't think he's F1. I also know the observation is going to differ depending on the observer but I didn't see Kaitlyn and Nick's sexual chemistry as all that strong; I saw very little intent from Kaitlyn.

I think that Shawn is more like the typical guy that Kaitlyn's dated (alpha male, athlete, etc), whereas Nick probably isn't someone that she would normally have dated (a little awkward and dorky, more intellectual, not physically built). I think that Kaitlyn must realized that, outside of the Bachelor bubble, she and Nick have fundamentally different personalities (funny, lives in the moment vs. analytical, always thinking ahead) that would have created problems.

I'm not sure, outside of the world of The Bachelor and The Bachelorette, what Kaitlyn's "type" is, but her attraction to Shawn is definitely an "alpha male" type of attraction; IMO Nick is not an alpha male by any stretch, but he tries to be one.

Lucas15 wrote:

GuardianAngel wrote:If he takes the "I got the girl" attitude then all should be well.

Maybe Lucas or any other males, can shed some light on this. How would a guy feel listening to his girl talk about not regretting having sex with someone else, or discussing it openly when it involves someone else? Unless she's convinced him that is what she is forced to say, and really regrets the whole situation, maybe twice.

Not very well; he'd probably be pretty jealous. You have to consider though that jealousy is more an instinctive behavior than it is a learned one. It's the instinct that keeps an omega male away from a female so the alpha's genetic traits aren't diluted, and any behavior that fosters the survival of a species is favored by natural selection. In extremes jealousy can be very disruptive but when we see a guy on the show exhibit some jealousy it might bear remembering - it's an instinct and it's one of the characteristics that helped humans rise to be the dominant species on the planet.

We know how Shawn feels, he hates the other guy. Is that the other guys fault?

IMO it's complicated.

Short answer - probably it's not the other guys fault but many guys are going to blame the other guy anyway.

Long answer - it may not make logical sense but the feelings on this don't come from logical thought but rather instincts.

Explanation of long answer:

Men compete for women in a certain way that has evolved over many eons of natural selection. Looking at our ancestors we can see that alpha males dominate the family in a social species - earning that position by exhibiting a set of traits that best insure the survival of the species; non-alpha males (omega males) respect the dominance of the alpha. These are instincts that males have - in other words it's not anything we learned to do - it's something we are born with the knowledge to do - just as birds are born with instincts to fly.

If you put a bunch of guys together competing for one female, there's going to be a tendency for many of them to "stand down" once they understand who the alpha in the group is; for guys the alpha may end up being the guy who cares the most for the girl and the others will stand on the sidelines and see if the girl selects the guy, and they will not intervene. Someone who doesn't "respect" the alpha is going to be seen as someone who can't be trusted or is a "snake" and to a guy, that probably means one thing - a snake is someone who will go behind you back and hit on your girlfriend / fiancee / wife. Many guys don't want to have that reputation so they will go out of their way to respect the right of another guy to pursue a woman - even if they like that woman themselves.

On this season, Joshua and Tanner and Joe (and more -those are the names that came first to my mind) are in the omega role and they might have to date Kaitlyn but they would see and respect Shawn's "role" and not try very hard because they see Shawn is the guy who most visibly cares about Kaitlyn.

IMO a lot of guys would look at the "conflict" between Shawn and Nick and say it's Nick's fault because he should have learned the ropes before jumping in with both feet and starting to chase Kaitlyn when Shawn was the guy who really really liked her, and Nick was a snake for hitting on her.

If this sounds far-fetched, consider last year's BIP when Cody Statler joined. One of the first things he did after a misstep or two was try to figure out who was spoken for and who would be available to ask out without stepping on anybody else's toes. When he couldn't resolve that he gave his date card to Marcus to take Lacy out. IMO we'll see that again this season too - guys will be reluctant to ask a girl out until they can figure out if she's with another guy and if she is - will the other guy mind?

Marcus made a very ballsy move by giving a rose to Lacy but IMO there was a lot of producer manipulation involved in setting that up. Marcus got the girl but he did p**s the other guy off. If Marcus hadn't gotten Lacy and tried to do the same thing again with someone else's girl all the guys would have ended up hating him.

All the above is JMHO. But given from a guy's perspective.

chasingpavements wrote:I suck at quoting properly, so here are my responses to each quote:

- Master was the wrong word, but I definitely think that they had a much stronger friendship than Shawn/Kaitlyn, just based on time and topic restrictions given by TPTB.

I just don't think that most people make their decision on romantic partner by thinking so analytically; most tend to just go on instinct on who like spending time with more, who they are more attracted to, and who they think they can build a life with.

I also think that you can get a pretty good idea of POTENTIAL of emotional intimacy; maybe Kaitlyn felt like she had hit her limit with Nick, but that she could develop a much stronger friendship with Shawn in time.

- Definitely agree that observational bias is going to come into play here, but I personally saw Kaitlyn as the initiator here, by wearing a hole-y sweater and telling Nick that she did so he could touch her back, losing her train of thought when talking to Nick, telling him that she agreed when he said it was a "where have you been" moment, etc. At the end of the day, if she wasn't that into him, she wouldn't have had sex with him which meant she risked her relationship with Shawn and her reputation. And, she wouldn't have had sex with him again at the FS (because if she didn't, there was no way he would be stupid enough to propose).

- See, I don't really see Nick try to be an alpha-male at all. All the guys bad-mouth him in FRONT of him (like, the whole "let's leave Nick here and go on a group date") and he just sits there and takes it. Even on Andi's season, when someone would confront him, he would admit it (yeah, I made fun of Cody and I shouldn't have) and he would just quietly listen. If he was trying to be an alpha-male, he would at least put on the appearance of being more confrontational. He also doesn't exhibit jealousy or possessiveness (when told about Shawn's extended date/off-camera time, just went "that's her right"). I think Nick is pretty good at owning who he is, and that includes the fact that he doesn't have the fear that most men have of showing their emotions.

Lucas15 wrote:

chasingpavements wrote:I suck at quoting properly, so here are my responses to each quote:

Let me see if I can do any better ...

- Master was the wrong word, but I definitely think that they had a much stronger friendship than Shawn/Kaitlyn, just based on time and topic restrictions given by TPTB.

I would agree with this for the most part but that's where I see the dynamic between Kaitlyn and Shawn developing and her's with Nick stagnating. Nick could have built upon that past friendship if he had chosen to but at least from what we saw he didn't - he went right for the physical when he had a strategic advantage.

I just don't think that most people make their decision on romantic partner by thinking so analytically; most tend to just go on instinct on who like spending time with more, who they are more attracted to, and who they think they can build a life with.

Agree and that's where Shawn has the advantage - he's the one that Kaitlyn was more attracted to, by her words, than anyone she had ever met. And curiously so far - Shawn hasn't really had a chance yet (that we've seen) to capitalize on his strategic advantage.

I also think that you can get a pretty good idea of POTENTIAL of emotional intimacy; maybe Kaitlyn felt like she had hit her limit with Nick, but that she could develop a much stronger friendship with Shawn in time.

That's the direction that Shawn is pushing her in. She gave an interesting answer to an interview question last week; the question was "Where do you see your relationship with Shawn at? And her answer (quite paraphased) was "We started out this high (hand raised above her head) and there was no way to go any higher so it had to go down from there. But the fact that we've had some ups and downs just makes a relationship stronger. So that's where it's at."

IMO her answer isn't about sexual attraction - it was about trust / communications and "friendship" so I think Shawn's push ended up working - eventually.

- Definitely agree that observational bias is going to come into play here, but I personally saw Kaitlyn as the initiator here, by wearing a hole-y sweater and telling Nick that she did so he could touch her back, losing her train of thought when talking to Nick, telling him that she agreed when he said it was a "where have you been" moment, etc. At the end of the day, if she wasn't that into him, she wouldn't have had sex with him which meant she risked her relationship with Shawn and her reputation. And, she wouldn't have had sex with him again at the FS (because if she didn't, there was no way he would be stupid enough to propose).

What I saw as missing was hard to explain. I guess I look to see if a woman is reacting to touch and a man's attention with a positive response. Too many times I would see Nick's hands on her and her just being almost completely passive, hands limply at her side and no physical response when I would have expected her to be getting turned on. Not all the time - just too much of the time. In Kaitlyn's case I might think that she wants to measure her own reactions to sex to know if she's compatible and she'll have sex to figure that out.

Sex in the FS does seem to me like a really dumb decision on top of an existing dumb decision, but IMO if the producers told her she had to do it again with Nick to make the ending dramatic, I think she'd do what they told her. Not that I think she should - just that I think to her - it's not that big a deal. And that's the problem with Kaitlyn - it should be a bigger deal. But that's just my moral compass talking for her and I really have no business doing that.

- See, I don't really see Nick try to be an alpha-male at all. All the guys bad-mouth him in FRONT of him (like, the whole "let's leave Nick here and go on a group date") and he just sits there and takes it. Even on Andi's season, when someone would confront him, he would admit it (yeah, I made fun of Cody and I shouldn't have) and he would just quietly listen. If he was trying to be an alpha-male, he would at least put on the appearance of being more confrontational. He also doesn't exhibit jealousy or possessiveness (when told about Shawn's extended date/off-camera time, just went "that's her right"). I think Nick is pretty good at owning who he is, and that includes the fact that he doesn't have the fear that most men have of showing their emotions.

All good points. But his line (not yet seen - maybe never will be - but he was shown saying it in the preview) "Don't make out with the girl I like before I do" is alpha "like". I don't see Nick as an alpha at all and all your points are part of why I don't. It's when he is trying to compete with guys for a woman he tries to be - maybe more like a "wanna be" alpha.

It's very interesting that you mention his lack of exhibition of jealousy / possessiveness - that's a very astute observation - and it's something that should be an instinctive behavior pattern. It's very possible that the real reason that Kaitlyn won't pick him is because she doesn't see him as alpha and she's attracted to alpha. I have read papers that make the observation that a woman may say she wants a sensitive man, but when confronted with a choice she'll pick a macho / Rhett Butler type who may actually be a bit insensitive.

stuckinsc wrote:Lucas, you make interesting points, but you can find an equal who is not passive without having to have an insensitive jerk.  Now knowing that may take years and experience, but men don't just fall into one of those two categories, just as women don't either.

A lot of us want less sex so I'm not going to look for more.

albean99 wrote:That's an opinion but not everyone thinks Shawn is an "insensitive jerk". I don't. It also seems to me that there's a lot of speculation being taken as the truth on episodes that haven't been shown yet. For example on the scene coming up that we saw with Ben H talking to Kaitlyn there have been a lot of posts stating that for sure they had sex while Ben was out of the room. All we "know" is what Shawn told the producer about it and that was that Kaitlyn told him he was the one. What exactly Kaitlyn said to give him that impression hasn't been seen and probably won't be now. As far as what happened, I don't care. A lot of us want less sex so I'm not going to look for more.

stuckinsc wrote:

albean99 wrote:That's an opinion but not everyone thinks Shawn is an "insensitive jerk". I don't. It also seems to me that there's a lot of speculation being taken as the truth on episodes that haven't been shown yet. For example on the scene coming up that we saw with Ben H talking to Kaitlyn there have been a lot of posts stating that for sure they had sex while Ben was out of the room. All we "know" is what Shawn told the producer about it and that was that Kaitlyn told him he was the one. What exactly Kaitlyn said to give him that impression hasn't been seen and probably won't be now. As far as what happened, I don't care. A lot of us want less sex so I'm not going to look for more.

But we don't know that Kaitlyn told him he was the one do we.  We know that he says she did, or did she confirm this in an interview?

Kashathediva wrote:Per Bean

A lot of us want less sex so I'm not going to look for more.

So tired of this aspect of this season. So over it. 
I never have considered myself a romanticist, but a little Austen romance would be refreshing about now.

chasingpavements wrote:(snipped)
- See, I don't really see Nick try to be an alpha-male at all. All the guys bad-mouth him in FRONT of him (like, the whole "let's leave Nick here and go on a group date") and he just sits there and takes it. Even on Andi's season, when someone would confront him, he would admit it (yeah, I made fun of Cody and I shouldn't have) and he would just quietly listen. If he was trying to be an alpha-male, he would at least put on the appearance of being more confrontational. He also doesn't exhibit jealousy or possessiveness (when told about Shawn's extended date/off-camera time, just went "that's her right"). I think Nick is pretty good at owning who he is, and that includes the fact that he doesn't have the fear that most men have of showing their emotions.

stuckinsc wrote:

albean99 wrote:That's an opinion but not everyone thinks Shawn is an "insensitive jerk". I don't. It also seems to me that there's a lot of speculation being taken as the truth on episodes that haven't been shown yet. For example on the scene coming up that we saw with Ben H talking to Kaitlyn there have been a lot of posts stating that for sure they had sex while Ben was out of the room. All we "know" is what Shawn told the producer about it and that was that Kaitlyn told him he was the one. What exactly Kaitlyn said to give him that impression hasn't been seen and probably won't be now. As far as what happened, I don't care. A lot of us want less sex so I'm not going to look for more.

But we don't know that Kaitlyn told him he was the one do we.  We know that he says she did, or did she confirm this in an interview?