Shawn Booth - Bachelorette 11 - *Spoilers - Sleuthing* - Discussion #2

chasingpavements wrote:On Grantland (I keep bringing it up because they made so many good points), Jacoby talked about how if he TRULY wanted to fall in love and wasn't just trying to win a competition, he would be like "Bring in anyone you want! Bring in George Clooney, for all I care, because you're going to have those temptation in real life and I need to know you'll choose me over everyone else, no matter what". I feel like Shawn isn't reacting like that. I would be upset if I were him too, but in a "oh, crap, the girl that I really like might like someone else more" way, but he just seems angry and bitter to me. Like, "oh, crap, I might not WIN anymore".

It also bothered me that when the other guys have ever confronted her (Kupah, Clint, Tony, even JJ at her stand-up routine), she has always held her ground and stood up for herself. Yet, when Shawn says "I wish you would be smarter. That guy is full of sh*t and your actions don't match your words", she was like "OMG, HOLD MY HAND! You're making me cry!". That doesn't seem like an equal and healthy relationship to me. I know it's just one moment out of a relationship, but that stuck out to me. To borrow Andi Dorfman's words, I don't feel like he is the guy to support and empower her in a relationship.

ITA. Imo, it is not equal, it is not healthy. In real life I would tell a girl who had that dymanic with a guy from the getgo (K and S barely knew each other then but for a few hours spent together) to Run, Run Fast!

But this is a Tv-Show. So I don't even know how much of any of this is real. Who knows if two people who are unemployed other than by things related to TPTB are in it together or really in love?

Imho, we see what we want to see and want to believe it is real b/c we have a snapchat of them and all these other romantic things.

But the bubble is also for viewers, believing in a fairytale that come overcome anything and everything. It is why this show keeps airing... because of that possibility that this time it is all real. All I know is some of the unhealthiest relationships can present themselves as fairytales.

TWT. jmo

Heh. Didn't Andi also say run? But not from Shawn, from Nick. Poor Kaitlin, she's surrounded by danger. So maybe Kait is doomed no matter which way she turns.

That's why I said it earlier, this relationship is more like Des and Brooks.
The girl wanted the guy so bad that she didn't see who is the right one.

It's never like the Jash relationship, JP was the calming force throughout the process, Ash could always tell him everything and found peace. Shawn? He just wanted Kait to be head over heels for him, but he didn't ground her feet at all.

I like Shawn and he has been an absolute gentleman who communicates well with Kaithlyn about his fears and feelings. I somewhat like Kaitlyn and think she is a refreshing Ette. If she really had sex with Nick just a few days after her seeminly romantic date with Shawn, then i nope Shawn isnt with her. They only just had a conversation about "the other guy" and how he wants to retreat, and she was all "trust me" then goes and sex up "the other guy" in the next breath? Not very trusting. These people in the bachelor family always run into each other, and id fear Kaithlyn may yet again sucuumb to Nick if they cross paths. Basically if i was Shawn, id never trust her with Nick again. I have nothing against Kaithlyn having sex, but to do it the very first time with a guy who has only been on the show for about a week while the other guys you have repeatedly told should trust you are still in the running is just wrong. So did she just sleep with someone she hardly knows while aspewing rubbish to others to open up so she gets to know them or did she lie about the relationship she had with Nick prior to his coming on the show? Either scenario does not paint her in good light IMO.

peggy0221 wrote:That's why I said it earlier, this relationship is more like Des and Brooks.
The girl wanted the guy so bad that she didn't see who is the right one.

It's never like the Jash relationship, JP was the calming force throughout the process, Ash could always tell him everything and found peace. Shawn? He just wanted Kait to be head over heels for him, but he didn't ground her feet at all.

IMO it's only partially like Des & Brooks. Des wanted Brooks so bad that she couldn't see that Brooks didn't want her but I think that Shawn wants Kaitlyn as much as Kaitlyn wants him so this is more like what might have happened for Des had Brooks wanted Des.

There are some notable differences between this season and Ashley's but IMO the more significant differences are those between Kaitlyn and Ashley than between Shawn and JP. Ashley kept JP clued in on what was going on and why. He didn't always like it and he sometimes got upset over it but Ashley always did something about it. When Bentley visited Ashley in Hong Kong the first person Ashley told about it was JP - so that he would not misunderstand the situation and how she handled it. When JP was having problems with the show trajectory (on the wedding photo shoot date) Ashley got up and got the date rose and gave it to JP - thus assuring him of a HTD.

From what we seem to know at this point, Kaitlyn has sex with Nick but doesn't tell Shawn for some time, and while she could have given the date rose the next day to Shawn she gave it instead to Jared. This is totally different than what Ashley did to keep JP "in the game" and who knows how Ashley's season might have turned out differently if she had treated JP the way Kaitlyn is treating Shawn.

Now that said, IMO what Kaitlyn did was not so much her own doing but rather what the producers would let her do but while she might perceive herself as one who has broken the rules - she's broken the wrong rules if her intent was to keep Shawn from going bonkers and nurture a new relationship. IMO Ashley might have broken rules too - but she broke the right rules.

ETA - As I now recall Ashley did break some rules. Elan teased JP about getting caught sneaking out of a hotel lobby in a hotel he shouldn't have been in. I thought at the time it might have been in Hong Kong but others (who were probably more correct than me) felt it was on the HTD. So "pre-FS sex" seems to have happened on Ashley's season - but with her F1 not someone else. Ashley also told JP that she loved him - before JP said it back to her. This came out on a tlak show after the finale but it was also in the final edit - you could actually hear it (they left it in but obscured it somewhat) if you did some audio filtering and augmentation.

Yep, Lucas, agreed. And the fact that Shawn stuck through this with Kaitlyn, regardless how reluctant and angry the show will make him look like, says a lot about the depth of his feelings for her. He must know that if he bailed, he would have been the lead. So at the least, she was more important than becoming the Bach to him. That doesn't seem like a man that was only there for the game and not the woman to me.

Whatever we may think we are not seeing imho what we are seeing so far very clearly shows that K is not showing any special treatment to Shawn nor is she breaking any rules for him. As he said himself - actions speak louder than words and none of K's actions (as opposed to her words) have made Shawn out as her special guy so far... There is no action evidence that he is her main front runner at all -- on the contrary -- as mentioned up thread he told her he wants her to start being "smart" about "the piece of sh*t other guy" and she went and got intimate with that guy 4 days later. She's repeatedly said being intimate with "the other guy" was not at all something she regrets. We also have some clue that she might get intimate with the other guy again in a few weeks. At this point we don't know anything from her actions that even give a clue that she feels strongly enough to modify her behavior to cater to Shawn over being intimate with and going all in with the other guys.

Things may change in the future but I think it's important to also consider exactly how katelyn is acting. And that according to her that she had sex with the other guy is only a mistake cos of timing.

JMHO

Alanna wrote:Yep, Lucas, agreed. And the fact that Shawn stuck through this with Kaitlyn, regardless how reluctant and angry the show will make him look like, says a lot about the depth of his feelings for her. He must know that if he bailed, he would have been the lead. So at the least, she was more important than becoming the Bach to him. That doesn't seem like a man that was only there for the game and not the woman to me.

^^^ This. IMO Shawn may have known he had options - it kind of makes sense that the producers would have used an "option" as part of their manipulation of Shawn - they do that even if they have zero intention of following through. I really believe that as we watch the show unfold it will be edited to seem like there's no way Shawn will stay or "pick" Kaitlyn back. There were probably real road bumps but the show is going to turn molehills into mountains because that's what they do. IMO the reason for many of the more unusual things this season is because the story is not about who Kaitlyn picks (which is the traditional story line) nor about her being conflicted at the end and making her final decision at the last minute but rather how they negotiate the hurdle to end up together and it will be made to seem an insurmountable hurdle. IMO that's why this was a foiler season - that she left single is what we will all expect from the edit and the surprise ending is that she didn't. Too bad she spoiled it because it could have been a shocker ending. On the other hand I will enjoy seeing how the show tells the story even though I know the ending.

^^ IA that it's not cut and dry yet for K. It is hard to look at what is being shown when there is spoilergate snapchat giving us the "happy ending". Obviously we get to that snapchat special but it is not there yet so I'm trying not to filter everything through that lens just so I can see the journey/rollercoaster K went on otherwise I find am trying to fit what I see into the spoiler instead. This Monday, K goes on a GD with Shawn and gives her GDR to Jared. Will be interested to see how Shawn reacts to that. His facial expression and body language in the s/cap is anything but pleased with her.

As for sticking with K to be F1? I hardly see him going from love at first sight and then leaving her and being seen as real by viewers. So much for love if one says all these amazing things and then hightails it outta there when the going gets tough. Don't see a bunch of viewers wanting him as lead then. So, imo, staying as F1 is the only course to go when he was LAFS out the gate. jmo

Shawn may not be the front runner in Kaitlin's mind but he sure believes he is and IMO Kait has encouraged it with her words telling him about how strong her connection is with him, basically telling him if it's them in the end everything will be worth it and most importantly that she is falling in love with him too. So of course, he's going to think he is F1. I know K points out in her blog it is still early in the process and has other relationships to focus on but Shawn just has 1 relationship so I don't blame him for being jealous .

emusha wrote:Things may change in the future but I think it's important to also consider exactly how katelyn is acting. And that according to her that she had sex with other guys is only a mistake cos of timing.

I remember her saying that but I also wonder if that's completely true. In one interview where she said that she was also asked "what was the most surprising thing to her" and her answer was "how much I cried. I can't believe how much I cried" We haven't seen her cry all that much - yet and the only thing we have now is her reaction to Shawn telling her her actions don't match her words when she said "You're going to make me cry."

Foreshadowing? IMO could well be foreshadowing that her crying and the reported existence of a "full Mesnick" this season is over Shawn and the fear of losing him because of what happened. I don't think you can go through a very emotional experience that causes the tears that Kaitlyn alludes to and not feel on some level you have regrets. Maybe though you might if in spite of that things turned out OK for you.

JMHO

Lucas15 wrote:

peggy0221 wrote:That's why I said it earlier, this relationship is more like Des and Brooks.
The girl wanted the guy so bad that she didn't see who is the right one.

It's never like the Jash relationship, JP was the calming force throughout the process, Ash could always tell him everything and found peace. Shawn? He just wanted Kait to be head over heels for him, but he didn't ground her feet at all.

IMO it's only partially like Des & Brooks. Des wanted Brooks so bad that she couldn't see that Brooks didn't want her but I think that Shawn wants Kaitlyn as much as Kaitlyn wants him so this is more like what might have happened for Des had Brooks wanted Des.

There are some notable differences between this season and Ashley's but IMO the more significant differences are those between Kaitlyn and Ashley than between Shawn and JP. Ashley kept JP clued in on what was going on and why. He didn't always like it and he sometimes got upset over it but Ashley always did something about it. When Bentley visited Ashley in Hong Kong the first person Ashley told about it was JP - so that he would not misunderstand the situation and how she handled it. When JP was having problems with the show trajectory (on the wedding photo shoot date) Ashley got up and got the date rose and gave it to JP - thus assuring him of a HTD.

From what we seem to know at this point, Kaitlyn has sex with Nick but doesn't tell Shawn for some time, and while she could have given the date rose the next day to Shawn she gave it instead to Jared. This is totally different than what Ashley did to keep JP "in the game" and who knows how Ashley's season might have turned out differently if she had treated JP the way Kaitlyn is treating Shawn.

Now that said, IMO what Kaitlyn did was not so much her own doing but rather what the producers would let her do but while she might perceive herself as one who has broken the rules - she's broken the wrong rules if her intent was to keep Shawn from going bonkers and nurture a new relationship. IMO Ashley might have broken rules too - but she broke the right rules.

ETA - As I now recall Ashley did break some rules. Elan teased JP about getting caught sneaking out of a hotel lobby in a hotel he shouldn't have been in. I thought at the time it might have been in Hong Kong but others (who were probably more correct than me) felt it was on the HTD. So "pre-FS sex" seems to have happened on Ashley's season - but with her F1 not someone else. Ashley also told JP that she loved him - before JP said it back to her. This came out on a tlak show after the finale but it was also in the final edit - you could actually hear it (they left it in but obscured it somewhat) if you did some audio filtering and augmentation.

IA. and lets not forget JPG gave NIkki he GDR back to back to back!