Nick Viall - Bachelorette 11 - *Spoilers - Sleuthing* - Discussion #4

nutty1 wrote:I think the "and then guess what" means Nick had sex on the show again. Hopefully, he won't ask her about it on the ATFR. I am sure people are hoping he will, and even if he doesn't ( do not think he will), TPTB know people will tune in just to see if he does.

No, he'll ask about the naughty texts. "Kaitlyn, why did you snapchat me your butt if you knew you weren't going to be my wife?!!" Enter crying and sobbing from Nick.

After Nick showed up last night, I found it funny how so many people cannot get over what happened last year, Andi is clearly not alone in this department, haha.

I hope Nick will become a more advanced villain this time round, so that people would try to understand him and talk about him for the rest of their lives, while our boy care nothing about it. And live with an extraordinary woman who gets him happily ever after.

Alanna wrote:

nutty1 wrote:I think the "and then guess what" means Nick had sex on the show again. Hopefully, he won't ask her about it on the ATFR. I am sure people are hoping he will, and even if he doesn't ( do not think he will), TPTB know people will tune in just to see if he does.

No, he'll ask about the naughty texts. "Kaitlyn, why did you snapchat me your butt if you knew you weren't going to be my wife?!!" Enter crying and sobbing from Nick.

IMO it's close to a foregone conclusion that Kaitlyn had sex with Nick - but also others. Disclosing this wouldn't have the same effect as it did on the last show Nick was on. Of course that doesn't mean that Nick won't ask a question.

So if she was so gaga over him and then proceeded to have sex with him did she choose him ? And if not why not. The promo suggested that she was upset on the show but her post show interviews state otherwise. Very interesting.

Lucas15 wrote:CH didn't exactly say Nick was there for the attention but he did say he questioned Nick's motives. **snipped**
And my interpretation of the "seed" that CH was planting wasn't that someone else would do to Nick what Nick did before - that wouldn't be repeating history because that never happened before. What CH said exactly was:

I'm curious to see if Kaitlyn calls him out on what he did to Andi.
CH: Or if history repeats itself. I think we all have this ability to think, "Oh that won't happen to me." And then guess what?

CH is the ultimate BS artist and you never know if what he's saying is just hyping drama or if it's some sort of clue because he does both all the time. I never believe everything that CH says because it might be total hype and BS - but I also never completely discount anything he says because it might be a clue as to what is going to happen.

Thank you Lucas. So basically it goes on the same line ...which leaves me with few comments:
1) Why would K need to ask (or reprimand) Nick about his behavior on Andi's season? - it's in the past and I'm sure we've all done mistakes in our past relationships, otherwise we wouldn't be in the new one, but also, I would assume that if Kaitlyn had any problem with Nick's conduct, they've probably talked about it already in private and there's no need to bring it on again for the show ... but then again the show must go on.
2) Who can say with certainty what K really thinks about the situation from the last season and whose side she was on? ... Maybe she's not questioning whether this can happen to her, because she isn't worried to talk about it?
3) I think "if history repeats itself" is more for the fans/viewers ... they are the ones expecting for Nick to make the same mistakes again, behave the same way ... and no need to worry, you will get the same-old "Nick version by TPTB"... but in order to repeat, things need to happen:
- K has to 1st sleep with him (which she probably did)
- K needs to sleep with the other guy (which is also insinuated she did in FS)
- K would need to pick the other guy as F1 ...
then since Kait is being honest, she would tell the other guy that she slept with Nick, which can bring "destined F1" to leave ... resulting K ends alone ... BUT ... there is also a promise of "a Full Mesnick" ... maybe possible F2 come-back ... And then guess what?

IMHO if they don't end up together, it's not about whether they slept together. Of course they slept together. It will be about how she deals with it afterwards!

happygolucky wrote:1) Why would K need to ask (or reprimand) Nick about his behavior on Andi's season?

She probably wouldn't and IMO Robyn's question is mostly irrelevant.

ETA: Robyn gets a lot of access to CH over many years. I believe that she is less of an "investigative reporter digging for truth" and more of a straight man who asks the questions CH wants to answer - to give CH a chance to regurgitate the show's "party line". IMO that was a question CH wanted asked so he could give the answer he gave.

I was more interested in the answer CH gave than the question Robyn asked.

2) Who can say with certainty what K really thinks about the situation from the last season and whose side she was on? ... Maybe she's not questioning whether this can happen to her, because she isn't worried to talk about it?

Yes - Kaitlyn makes no excuses for who she sleeps with and when so being "outed" for sleeping with someone means little to her. And thanks to all the publicity about the sex event, it won't mean much to viewers.

3) I think "if history repeats itself" is more for the fans/viewers ... they are the ones expecting for Nick to make the same mistakes again, behave the same way ... and no need to worry, you will get the same-old "Nick version by TPTB"... but in order to repeat, things need to happen:
- K has to 1st sleep with him (which she probably did)
- K needs to sleep with the other guy (which is also insinuated she did in FS)
- K would need to pick the other guy as F1 ...
then since Kait is being honest, she would tell the other guy that she slept with Nick, which can bring "destined F1" to leave ... resulting K ends alone ... BUT ... there is also a promise of "a Full Mesnick" ... maybe possible F2 come-back ... And then guess what?

That's where it gets interesting. If the guy Kait slept with before the FD ends up being F1 anyway - who cares when or how many times she slept with him? It's absolutely no big deal to F1 or Kait. Viewers may think it's unfair or icky but IMO she should not care - and wouldn't care. But the rest of your logic is also valid - IF Nick was the "sex guy" and she wanted someone else as F1 and therefore had to tell the other guy about sleeping with Nick and he couldn't deal with the fact that she slept with Nick quite before the FD and bailed, then we have a "situation" for Kait. And that situation could well have left her without the F1 she wanted and just feeling totally icky about everything that happened with Nick and therefore unable to choose Nick - and is alone. At least that's a theory that IMO is plausible.

I don't consider that a "Full Mesnick" necessarily means a change in choice - I think as CH uses it it means an emotional outburst such as Jason had after he sent Molly home where he cried over the railing. For that matter ( ) we sort of had a Mesnick from JJ after Kait sent Clint home - so this may be a "Mesnick kind of season".

I'm on board with the theory that she had sex with f2, told her f1, he couldn't handle it and she was left alone- feeling horrible about what happened with f1 and therefore, unable to move on with her f2 (sex guy) either. 

Her sm doesn't seem to indicate she's alone though or that it had a really poor ending but I guess at the same time, she really doesn't have a choice but to continue promoting the show anyway.

Alanna wrote:I'm on board with the theory that she had sex with f2, told her f1, he couldn't handle it and she was left alone- feeling horrible about what happened with f1 and therefore, unable to move on with her f2 (sex guy) either. 

Her sm doesn't seem to indicate she's alone though or that it had a really poor ending but I guess at the same time, she really doesn't have a choice but to continue promoting the show anyway.

If Kait went on the show bound and determined to find love then I would expect we might see a degree of sorrow in an outcome that leaves her alone. But if she went on the show primarily to have a once in a lifetime adventure and "build her brand" she got all she might have wanted out of the experience and could be happy and single because it wasn't a poor ending in her view. In fact, if she plays her cards right at the end she could come out of the show having picked no one but smelling like a rose; she'd have to eat a little crow I think, but it could be pulled off. She probably would need and have to heed the advice of someone like advised Melissa Rycroft though ...

Thank you all, Lucas, for continuing speculating... for me is just blurting out all the options.
What leads me to believe there is F1 ... or at least say, she isn't single:
- she asked the viewers to stick with her till the end (just "happy for finding the love within me" isn't enough for the TB audience to be satisfied, maybe TPTB would be OK with it, since to them it matters the whole length of the show, the ending is irrelevant as long as people talk) and to have faith (paraphrasing)
- some of the closest people from TB family keep sending her wishes for finding love ... I would assume they would write something else if there is slight possibility that she didn't (I don't know how much other people know - like Jillian, Ali, Des, Andi, Britt - about the ending)
- she keeps bringing out the love and her true intentions ... so the only way for me to see her possible single status is if her F1 leaves her and not that she would intentionally choose to be single. And for F1 to leave, it means something must had happened. - IF

So, what I was contemplating before about the Frontrunner 1 and Frontrunner 2 ... I'm still debating in my mind, which of the 2 is Nick and which one is Shawn.
I do believe that for the first few weeks, until Nick's arrival, Shawn was her original F1 in her mind (I'm not so sure about TPTB mind, since they knew when to bring Nick on), so the question remains... was their connection "of love at the first sight" stronger than "friendship with chemistry of first two seconds"?

Kaitlyn also said that slow and steady wins the race with her, so I don't know who is the slow and steady one- Nick because they had a friendship first off-camera or Shawn because he was there for her from day 1 of this "journey" (drink!!)? I would think it's Nick but he's billed as the lust guy, so I'm assuming Shawn is love? 

Who knows, fun to waste time speculating though

had posted this in the general discussion thread but wanted to share this -- since it's relevant to this convo :

Have no idea what RS is going to share today but I have an inkling that tptb have an especially good handle on "embracing" spoilers this season and that whatever came out might have been leaked to him that maybe new info today was also calculated ..I think the reveal early that nick was coming on the show still ended up in a LOT of reaction and a lot of stress for K /buzz so they may be releasing new info

In any case here's my hunch right now:
K had sex with Shawn
-his social media tweets of them kissing, "first kiss" "love at first sight" him choosing K etc. have a potential to be geared toward justifying his feelings and therefore his action
- the screenshot evidence supports that... K's face when Shawn comes to visit her in Dublin seems to be a bit on the mischievous side
- from N & K's chemistry during this week's episode to me imho the kisses and cuddling looks much less "hot and heavy physical vs. passionate and emotional". Their kisses are tender and speak of a "deeper connection" more so than "fiery wanna get in your pants" which would be the kind of passion I expect to have blind her thoughts into the "oopsie just fell into sex" -- her first kiss with shawn was more passion with that sexy factor IMHO
- they're being VERY deliberate about including the clip where Nick called Andi out on the abc site for this season -- not any other clip mind you.I think the edit is setting up a "lust" vs. "love"
Will the guy who "sl*tshamed" Andi be ok with K's having sex with someone else? (they've used the term "sl*tshame" repeatedly and purposefully made it a big hoopla)
- I also think nick's positive (relatively i.e. without villian mask) edit is very fishy to me right now -- the soundtrack has dropped and you can actually see nick being very considerate of K in several ways without it seeming doubtful or creepy he actually comes across as a bit of a sweetheart in that way... imho they're setting that up for a purpose and not to be nice to K or N
- there's a "moth to a flame" reference and "risking it all for nick" and "she's her own worst enemy" they're being very upfront about how drawn she was to nick but then alluding to sabotage and risk taking potentially in vain

would be interesting to see if the rumors remockered is hearing (she knows Nick's family) is true that he may have walked out midday/walked out and come back and/or K went after him...auntielove's spoiler from a source was also similar that nick left around HTD week/week 7

on the flip side I do think shawn is being set up as the frontrunner more so than other guys and he is set up for positive publicity which makes it seem like he'd be tb candidate at the same time they had a sm post comparing ben H and ben z as bachelor potentials so maybe they're looking in that direction instead? in any case the possiblity that shawn is being set up for tb contradicts this theory. at the same time the clear devotion and very early "in love at first sight" approach of shawn's (other guys calling him a creepy fan) could set him up as the guy who'd go all the way with her.

Another reason i think it's less likely nick would be sex guy is the look of sheer anxiety and fear on his face on his way to the hotel room -- he knows he's going to be chastized and unless he ended up saying "who cares" midway cos they weren't gonna cut him a break anyways -- the likelihood of him going "all in" in that setting seems low
JMHO