Nick Viall - Bachelorette 11 - *Spoilers - Sleuthing* - Discussion #4

This line of argument is the same to me as Deanna wouldn't hold Jason away from his son if he wasn't f1, especially wouldn't let this great dad propose, etc.

Ehhh, I'm sure if tptb told her, Kait let bffffff support system Nick get down on his knee and propose knowing she's about to break up with him.

Like his fans always said, he is a feminist,

Nick Viall retweeted wrote:TIME.com ‏@TIME 1h
Miss Piggy: "Moi is now and has always been an ardent feminist and champion of women’s rights" http://time.com/3908787/miss-piggy-feminist/

Lucas15 wrote:

OnePromise wrote:And Alanna, you are right the leads and contestants are manipulated or forced to do many things, but Kaitlyn still has a choice. She can't truly be forced into anything. She can refuse and stand up for herself and her values.  If they deceived her into turning Nick down, I would hope that the truth would be revealed to Nick and Kaitlyn at some point because compelling TV just isn't worth that.  And shame on the producers.  (But we already knew that....)

No she can't be forced. We all have the ability to refuse to do something and stand on our principles at all costs - as long as we are willing to pay the whatever those costs might be. What if instead of being manipulated she was threatened that she would never find work in the industry unless she did what they asked? What if she was threatened that her edit would portray her as a sl*t and ruin her reputation and she would be the laughing stock of anyone who ever watched the show? What if they threatened to deface her favorite teddy bear with non-washable crayons? OK - tongue in cheek on that last threat but hopefully you get the idea here. If anyone thinks they would not stoop this low - I could cite a situation where they have. I won't - I just could.

IMO

Very true Lucas... But she still has the choice. Not saying it is an easy one. But, if that was the scenario she had, she still chose selfishly, she chose her self preservation over Nick. Not saying I would chose any differently. And why should she? This journey was about her, right? I just don't think that ending is refreshing....or satisfying for me to watch. I see people make self-serving decisions every day. It would be something new to see Kaitlyn stick to her guns and unabashedly live out the principle of "be you".

Besides, the producers wouldn't have to make Kaitlyn let Nick propose for a good ending...they work magic with editing. They need far less to come up with a pretty juicy ending, IMO. She could have just said, "Look guys, I'm not going to throw Nick under the bus for your dramatic ending. Come up with it another way. You've done better with less. Be creative." In fact, if Kaitlyn really means that she is going to be herself no matter what comes her way, she would not have cared what edit they threatened her with.

Alanna wrote:This line of argument is the same to me as Deanna wouldn't hold Jason away from his son if he wasn't f1, especially wouldn't let this great dad propose, etc.

Ehhh, I'm sure if tptb told her, Kait let bffffff support system Nick get down on his knee and propose knowing she's about to break up with him.

Yup, I agree. I always haer people say "Person X would never do this when he/she becomes the lead!" At the end of the day, they ALL do what they are told. I don't think that Kaitlyn is any different than Deanna and Ashley Hebert, who both let their F2s propose.

Seems to me like Kaitlyn IS getting the sl*t edit. Don't know if that's punishment for not doing what TPTB wanted for finale or if she just gave them enough to work with and they chose to edit her that way. (BTW, I don't consider her owning that she is a young woman with a healthy sex drive to mean she is a sl*t, but it sure seems to me they are giving her a sl*t edit).
So, I can't follow the logic that she would have given in to pressure to let Nick propose because she was threatened with a bad edit. TPTB sure haven't done her any favors imo with the edit

chasingpavements wrote:

Alanna wrote:This line of argument is the same to me as Deanna wouldn't hold Jason away from his son if he wasn't f1, especially wouldn't let this great dad propose, etc.

Ehhh, I'm sure if tptb told her, Kait let bffffff support system Nick get down on his knee and propose knowing she's about to break up with him.

Yup, I agree. I always haer people say "Person X would never do this when he/she becomes the lead!" At the end of the day, they ALL do what they are told. I don't think that Kaitlyn is any different than Deanna and Ashley Hebert, who both let their F2s propose.

I agree and the K I see on my screen at times looks very insecure and unsure. She even looked to Nick to ask if she would be the one to make the decision for him to come back! 
TPTB foster an environment to keep the cast including the lead off-balance and questioning if black is black and white is white.

OnePromise wrote:Very true Lucas... But she still has the choice.  Not saying it is an easy one.  But, if that was the scenario she had, she still chose selfishly, she chose her self preservation over Nick.  Not saying I would chose any differently.

Not saying I would choose differently either. Sometimes when you think "I wouldn't do that for all the tea in China", you find out your bottom line is really that you'd do it for a paycheck if that's what you need to survive. You might not feel good about it, but you might do it.

My point really was that IMO I can't say that Kaitlyn wouldn't do something because I can't say what pressures she might have been under or even what lies she might have been told. For example - they might have told Kaitlyn after they knew that she was not going to choose Nick as F1 that they wanted her to film a scene where he would propose and she would reject his proposal. And when she balked at doing that, they might have told her "Look - Nick knows you're going to reject him - we told him you were. We just need some dramatic footage because we want him to be the next bachelor so do him this favor and let us get some great footage so he has a great season." Of course they would have been lying to her because they wouldn't have told Nick any such thing - they would have told Nick "she wants a proposal because she wants to marry you. You're F1 my friend. You're going to have beautiful babies - invite me to your wedding."

Bravo! Excellent theory.

totally agree with your theories. i remember jason told something similar on their podcast that he didn't want to propose to melissa and even called her parents to say he was not proposing, and then the producers called melissa's parents back and told them jason made a mistake and the proposal was on. he said they threatened him and told him he will be america's biggest joke if he didn't propose. well, he ended up being one after what happend at the atfr but point is, these leads are under so much pressure.

we haven't had a f2 proposal in a while and i had a feeling it would have happened this season.

Lucas, I wouldn't put that past the producers either.  I would hope that both Kaitlyn and Nick having gone through this type of manipulation would be able to agree only to trust each other, but you are right we have no way of knowing what was said to each party behind the scenes.  
So if it ends just as RS has predicted, I plan to use your theory as my way of justifying what I believe to be true of both Kaitlyn and Nick.  That they both got played by the evil, soul sucking producers.  It is the only answer that makes any sense to me.  Hopefully, they would have had the chance to talk it all out since filming ended.  Maybe that is why Kaitlyn says, "It ended the way it should." And Nick looks peaceful and pretty happy. He didn't get the girl, but she wasn't trying to hurt him in the end.  They could still be on the same team and support each other as friends.   It would also explain Nick's "All out of bubblegum..." tweet. He was ready to kick some producer azz after all that manipulation.

Yea, I can picture them contacting one another since filming, especially if the end is producer-driven. I don't think either is the type to put it behind coldly.

Yeah, I could see both playing with their own rules once everything is outside the bubble.