Nick Viall - Bachelorette 11 - *Spoilers - Sleuthing* - Discussion #3

I don't understand what you mean about flipping the situation exactly. There are no "bylaws" on TB, IMO, but the show has been on for enough years that IMO, anyone who chooses to participate can (and should) educate themselves about the format of the show and the manipulations and objectives of the producers as far as leading contestants on.

Don't want to dwell on Andi, but IMO, yeah she lied about having zero feelings for Nick in an effort to make Josh feel better about the sex, plus she was pissed at Nick for the things he said about her and Josh on the airplane video. She may not have ever been "in love" with him, but she liked him enough to consider him a "back-up" plan if Josh didn't work out during filming, not that she'd ever admit to that. And I do think that all the leads are encouraged by production to be selfish and think of their own needs first, although certainly many listen to their conscience and take others' feelings into consideration instead. I don't think Andi was one of the ones who did however. That also fits with the opinion many of her detractors have had about her character, or lack thereof, doesn't it?

ironcat wrote:I don't understand what you mean about flipping the situation exactly.   There are no "bylaws" on TB, IMO, but the show has been on for enough years that IMO, anyone who chooses to participate can (and should) educate themselves about the format of the show and the manipulations and objectives of the producers as far as leading contestants on.

Don't want to dwell on Andi, but IMO, yeah she lied about having zero feelings for Nick in an effort to make Josh feel better about the sex, plus she was pissed at Nick for the things he said about her and Josh on the airplane video.  She may not have ever been "in love" with him, but she liked him enough to consider him a "back-up" plan if Josh didn't work out during filming, not that she'd ever admit to that.  And I do think that all the leads are encouraged by production to be selfish and think of their own needs first, although certainly many listen to their conscience and take others' feelings into consideration instead.  I don't think Andi was one of the ones who did however.  That also fits with the opinion many of her detractors have had about her character, or lack thereof, doesn't it?

Yes, it does, thus the nickname, MEandI. 
I agree with your post. Makes sense to me and the way I look at it. 
And we prob should veer back to the topic at hand --all of us. :Nod:

Well I was just going with the word you used to describe the "bylaws" which you were saying Nick was supposedly putting forth about "moral behavior" around sex. It sounded to me like you had expectations of him to be aware of some other behavioral standards and exceptions which can also be seen as "bylaws" of the show and how the show worked... anyways I was just playing around with the phrasing for fun cos I see both these standards of behavior i.e. Nick's real world ones and the show ones as possible "by laws" of acceptable behavior in the relevant setting

I don't think it's fair to say that Nick's feelings and expectations make him someone who was placing high moral expectations and painting himself as a victim etc. in light of how the show works particularly because of Andi's behavior which took things a step further.

I think his reactions of confusion and hurt were warranted and should not result in him being painted as anything other than human whether or not he was aware of how this show works. sex is real and if he was hurt and asking for explanations - then he has every right to do so without being painted as a caricature...

I don't think Nick tried to present himself as a victim, I think some of his fans did.  I think that once he dropped the bomb on the ATFR and started getting asked about the incident in the media, he decided to present his "bylaws" (so named by me, not by him) for sex etiquette, which he may (or may not) totally subscribe to in the real world, but which certainly most women would applaud and consider the correct attitude/rule for the gallant, humble, sincere, ie "perfect" man to live by.

Whether or not he is "sex guy" this season, it should be interesting to see if his behavior/reaction regarding the incident is consistent with his purported views.

Kashathediva wrote:snipped..

Yes, it does, thus the nickname, MEandI. 
I agree with your post. Makes sense to me and the way I look at it. 
And we prob should veer back to the topic at hand --all of us. :Nod:

ironcat wrote:I don't think Nick tried to present himself as a victim, I think some of his fans did.  I think that once he dropped the bomb on the ATFR and started getting asked about the incident in the media, he decided to present his "bylaws" (so named by me, not by him) for sex etiquette, which he may (or may not) totally subscribe to in the real world, but which certainly most women would applaud and consider the correct attitude/rule for the gallant, humble, sincere, ie "perfect" man to live by.

Whether or not he is "sex guy" this season, it should be interesting to see if his behavior/reaction regarding the incident is consistent with his purported views.

honestly asking for explanations when someone had sex with you knowing you were in love with them by no means comes off as "by laws"  or sex etiquette to me. it was a man hurt having confessed feelings and having performed an act of intimacy then to have the act completely thrown in his face when the other player in the scenario said they had ZERO feelings - NONE of "falling" or "love" for him in a public forum... that statement questions the WHOLE relationship between them so he reacted by asking but then how come...? 

there is no need to go into seeing him as someone making proclamations about social standards at all...what we observed is one person and another person, the act they did together and the information they shared and withheld at different points in time. Nick did not make any statements about social mores or standards that all people should adhere to about sex he simply explained how he interpreted the specific situation and Andi's specific behavior he also simply reacted to that specific scenario. the only statement he made about social standards on sex is that it should not be wrong to discuss sex publicly. he apologized for the way he brought it up because he blurted out that statement when he was slightly shocked by Andi's demeanor and statements at the AFTR. he explained all of this.

Andi could have simply avoided all that by simply saying during FS...."I still don't know how I feel about either of you but I'd like to have sex to read how I feel ..." if he chose to not have sex it's his prerogative...everyone has the option to reject the other every step of the way. she is by no means given any allowances to be an exception to that rule. if she took away Nick's right to choose then that is on HER and something the show does not allow in it's adhering to "everyone has a choice all the time" assumption... If Andi had clarified her stance no one would be hurt or asking for explanations in public no need for questions or answers or lies.

Nick's reaction to the situation with Andi should have no bearing on how he behaves with Kaitlyn other than the key sticking point in the situation which at the core of it is NOT sex but is: COMMUNICATION. 

MHO

OK--topic is ^ Nick--Bach 11 Sleuthing/Spoilers
Just a reminder before we "lock and delete".

So- has there been any social media from Nick today?

I am curious, how long do SH weekends usually last? I have never paid much attention to safehouse sleuthing, so I am curious.

Kashathediva wrote:

KB_Mom wrote:Given how choppy and splice and dice that preview is with Kaitlyn telling someone "we had sex", the S\C of Nick's face when she says it, wanting imo to mislead us to believe Nick was pre FS sex guy, I think it's at least possible Nick is the one she tells she had sex with another guy.

I am starting to believe this scenario more and more and I have a feeling it's not going to be about any of this season's men. In fact, I think when she says "it went too far, too fast", she will be referring to last season with Chris S and not this season.
The previews did above and beyond hooking and titillating the fans. Kudos to TPTB.

I was thinking the same thing Kasha. Maybe a reference to Chris or maybe an exboyfriend or something; probably no one on this season.

officeRules wrote:So- has there been any social media from Nick today?  

I am curious, how long do SH weekends usually last?   I have never paid much attention to safehouse sleuthing, so I am curious.

If one this weekend probably through tomorrow.....just a guess though because I also don't follow SH stuff that closely

MonicaJM2001 wrote:

nutty1 wrote:I still think Nick doesn't equate sex with marriage.
But I think in the FS, he incorrectly assumed, being it was right before the FRC, that it meant something more, at that time. Maybe he and Kaitlyn discussed all that prior to having sex, if he even is the one she had sex with.

I know we won't all agree on that. But one thing we can agree on is Nick is very polarizing!

I never got the impression that his problem with the sex had to do with only have sex with someone you marry either. It was the timing of it in the FS AFTER he had told her he loved her, etc and from what Nick said the actions/implications in the FS gave him the impression she felt the same way. She delivered her "I never loved you spiel" and how she knew it was Josh all along and that is when he was like why have sex then knowing it was Josh all along? Valid question imo.

Totally agree Monica.

SueSt wrote:

Kashathediva wrote:

KB_Mom wrote:Given how choppy and splice and dice that preview is with Kaitlyn telling someone "we had sex", the S\C of Nick's face when she says it, wanting imo to mislead us to believe Nick was pre FS sex guy, I think it's at least possible Nick is the one she tells she had sex with another guy.

I am starting to believe this scenario more and more and I have a feeling it's not going to be about any of this season's men. In fact, I think when she says "it went too far, too fast", she will be referring to last season with Chris S and not this season.
The previews did above and beyond hooking and titillating the fans. Kudos to TPTB.

I was thinking the same thing Kasha.  Maybe a reference to Chris or maybe an exboyfriend or something; probably no one on this season.

If this should be the case, it may lend more truth about rejecting a proposal, only to encourage continued real life dating with one or both men.