Andi Dorfman & Josh Murray - Bachelorette 10 - General Discussion #3

luvlady345 wrote:Yes it is my opinion, that's why to declare that the truth is coming out because of Nick's opinion is still just an opinion......

relaxing wrote:So many great posts here I can't quote everything I agree with.  It's the psychology of people and how it shows itself in different ways that can be so interesting.

A few of my thoughts that made me never warm up to either Andi or Josh or them together (that echo many above):

-   the preordained from preshow feeling about them and their families
-   he was giddy and gooey out of the limo - clearly a preconceived idea or her or winning had already taken him over - I never saw his genuine interest grow out  of their time together
- she had so many doubts about him throughtout
- they both are confrontational in conflicts - all I could see after the lie detector episode was major head butting battles
- the proposal moved me 0% - no emotion from either to me that day
- I didn't follow their post finale media much but the one interview I saw Andi was sort of snarkily making snide "jokes" that to me were insulting and Josh grinned through them - for a new couple I was astonished at that  - it seemed mean spirited to me


Also his whole persona never rung true to me - his story of leaving baseball to have a family lifestyle then never playing again because it hurt too much and also not having any relationships in 5 years because he was waiting for the one - the whole story is just so off to me and such a turnoff - just man up and say you moved on from baseball after you went as far as you could go, be proud of what you did accomplish, and that you're casually dating until you meet someone to get into a more serious relationship with.  Not too hard to say the truth and it sounds true.  I do think for a star athlete it's hard to move on from the limelight, attention and how it defines your life.  I hope he can find a new passion.

Lastly I usually become a fan of the person I like the lead best with on the show.  And this season I liked Andi with Marcus (she was much softer, gentler and seemed most caring with him) and Nick (loved their conversations, and more lighthearted flirtiness, she seemed most fun and engaged with him).  Even not caring for Andi much those 2 guys brought out something more likable in her to me.

notarose wrote:So many great posts upthread   What a smart group of thinkers!  The best thing to come from this show is reading all your thought-provoking posts. 


About "alpha", I don't think Josh was the only Alpha male in the house however he best fit the "alpha" stereotype or maybe he was more alpha more often.
I'm thinking of his confrontation with Andrew compared to Marquel's confrontation with Andrew. In Marquel's case, his measured calm alpha move ended with Andrew clearly "whipped" and abashed whereas in Josh's scenerio Josh is left outside a closed door complaining to a female production person while Andrew remains Andrew. Alpha looks different on different people.

  Andi and Josh seemed to have the same way of expressing their Alpha side and that makes a big difference. That likely initially gave them a quick understanding of each other but overtime would just be a power struggle.  
There may have been 1 or more guys on the season that would have been suited for Andi but I don't really think she would have been a good match for any of them in the long run. 

FLChica, so true.  I think women (and men as well) with quiet strength are the best role models... a rope made of silk is just as strong as a rope of twine.

Kashathediva wrote:
I have to give credit where credit is due. I'm glad I was not MM at that viewing occasion, puts a whole new definition to grace under fire. Kudos to her. Huge sink hole swallow me whole would be my thoughts.
A new relationship is hard enough, without dealing with this elephant. We can debate what happened at the ATFR to the end of days, but it's what actually happened (the gal sleeping with another guy a week before becoming engaged) that would be disturbing to me as the mom or the guy involved. IRL this situation is what it was regardless of how it was brought to light.

sdmom wrote:I do not like to call anyone "loser". However, the reality is:
6 months after ATFR, Andi has no job, no fiance, no her own place, and probably will have no ring. I also agree with some posters that she seem has no direction in life.
The "classless loser", on the other hand,  went back to his job, has nothing but praise for Josh and Andi in his post show interviews, never responds to negative SM comments, stays away from the limelight and completely moves on with his life. Yeah, I think I am a fan of this loser!

Kashathediva wrote:Hmm. Color me confused.
Facts are facts regardless of opinions. That's the thing about facts. They are. Whereas, opinions, they are fluid. They can change, but doesn't mean one counts more or less than another.

SueSt wrote:

sdmom wrote:I do not like to call anyone "loser". However, the reality is:
6 months after ATFR, Andi has no job, no fiance, no her own place, and probably will have no ring. I also agree with some posters that she seem has no direction in life.
The "classless loser", on the other hand,  went back to his job, has nothing but praise for Josh and Andi in his post show interviews, never responds to negative SM comments, stays away from the limelight and completely moves on with his life. Yeah, I think I am a fan of this loser!

Count me in sdmom.  This 'loser' showed a LOT more class than the nasty winners, that's for sure!!

The most beautiful people we have known are those who have known defeat, known suffering, known struggle, known loss, and have found their way out of the depths. These persons have an appreciation, a sensitivity, and an understanding of life that fills them with compassion, gentleness, and a deep loving concern. Beautiful people do not just happen. - Elisabeth Kübler-Ross

Ash2214 wrote:

sbolduc wrote:

Sprite wrote:

I always love it when the things we speculate about during the season prove to be correct. Many of us saw the truth in the things that both Eric and Nick said...even if it was not always the most popular opinion. We also saw issues with both Andi and Josh which have since been shown to be spot on.

Andi is a hard woman to deal with. JPab and Eric both had a hard exit with her, but the clincher for me was her behaviour in the interview with CH after Eric's death...that I believe was supposed to make her appear more sympathetic. It didn't. If she couldn't muster up sympathy for a man who died so tragically young, whose only issue with her was to ask her to be herself on a stupid reality show, then I don't know when she would/could ever be a kinder, gentler, forgiving person. He dared question her and she could not forgive that...even under those tragic circumstances. That is harsh. Really harsh.

One thing that I want to bring up about the whole relationship between Josh and Andi is that they both knew of each other before the show even started. We had Josh saying he saw her in some club before her season of the Bette started and he was in the middle of being cast. His mom loved her on the Bachelor and I have to think that that had a big influence on him. No doubt his mom pointed out all the similarities between them that would make them a good match and he likely values her opinion since they appear very close. Same deal with Hy and Andi. From all accounts, he was well aware of the Murray clan and likely encouraged Andi in that direction even before the show...not to mention he was there for the meet and greet the first night and during the MTF date. So likely, they were primed to be interested in one another by their families and their approval and encouragement. I think that might have made them more blinded to the problems in the relationship since their families thought they were a good match....and they have both shown that they seek that family approval. It might also be what made them stick it out for longer than they originally might have.

To the bolded absolutely. As I have mentioned before this is my biggest issue with this season. Andi was primed to pick Josh even before the full cast was set. And IMO no one else had a chance even if they were much better suited for her, which I believe some of them were.

I definitely see where you're coming from, but for me at least, I think there's a contestant every season that is most expected for the lead to pick. When we look at Sean's season, and you take away the personality aspects and the fact that she appears to be a bit nuts with relationships, AshLee lived in Texas, is super faithful and her father was a pastor. Sean lives in Texas, is super faithful and his father is heavily involved with church considering he himself baptized Catherine. I would say just looking in on the outside, AshLee made the most sense for Sean, but he didn't pick her. Josh made the most sense for Andi and she picked him. The same could be said for Juan Pablo's season. I would say there were two girls on his season that legitimately made sense for him on paper, but he didn't pick them.

For me, part of the reason why I liked Andi and Josh so much during the season was because on paper, they seemed like a match and it seemed the most realistic because neither of them had to uproot their life to another state or part of the country. Obviously none of that matters now, but it seems more realistic. I think production knew they struck gold in a match for Andi, at least on paper, and if she didn't pick him they struck gold with a good bachelor.

Ash2214 wrote:^ Yeah I definitely get that.

I won't get into too much detail since it doesn't matter now, but Lauren and Hy sent out one tweet to each other when filming had already started (first couple of days). When RS released Josh as a contestant, Andi was already in LA since it was a day or two before the ATFR where she would be announced as the bachelorette. Sure, Lauren was probably encouraging Josh at home, but Hy didn't know Josh was a contestant until RS released him as one, which was right before the season started to film. Obviously Hy was there that first night and I'm sure he talked to Andi, but regardless, I think she knew she wanted Josh from the moment he stepped out of the limo without even having to talk to her father.

I don't see it being any different than when Shay Shull got to see Sean while filming was going on still. The girls' bios were out while the season was filming that year pretty early on in September when it first started to film I believe. From something I had found on social media, Sean's cousin appeared to be rooting for two girls while the season was filming. Who's to say when Shay saw him and had some alone time with him she didn't try to push him into picking AshLee, the girl who made the most sense on paper? Obviously we don't know if that happened and nor can we confirm Hy did that with Andi, but either way, I don't see a difference.

Like I said in my original post, for me, the show is silly and what makes it even more ridiculous is that in most cases, the lead picks someone that lives in another state in a different part of the country. That's part of the reason why I liked Andi and Josh as it seemed the most realistic. But I do see where you're coming from.

Sprite wrote:

Ash2214 wrote:^ Yeah I definitely get that.

I won't get into too much detail since it doesn't matter now, but Lauren and Hy sent out one tweet to each other when filming had already started (first couple of days). When RS released Josh as a contestant, Andi was already in LA since it was a day or two before the ATFR where she would be announced as the bachelorette. Sure, Lauren was probably encouraging Josh at home, but Hy didn't know Josh was a contestant until RS released him as one, which was right before the season started to film. Obviously Hy was there that first night and I'm sure he talked to Andi, but regardless, I think she knew she wanted Josh from the moment he stepped out of the limo without even having to talk to her father.

I don't see it being any different than when Shay Shull got to see Sean while filming was going on still. The girls' bios were out while the season was filming that year pretty early on in September when it first started to film I believe. From something I had found on social media, Sean's cousin appeared to be rooting for two girls while the season was filming. Who's to say when Shay saw him and had some alone time with him she didn't try to push him into picking AshLee, the girl who made the most sense on paper? Obviously we don't know if that happened and nor can we confirm Hy did that with Andi, but either way, I don't see a difference.

Like I said in my original post, for me, the show is silly and what makes it even more ridiculous is that in most cases, the lead picks someone that lives in another state in a different part of the country. That's part of the reason why I liked Andi and Josh as it seemed the most realistic. But I do see where you're coming from.

I see where you are coming from as well and I agree. I thought the fact that they lived in the same city would be a positive for them ... along with the religions lining up with the parents. The only thing I would add is that I think Andi knew of the Murray's independently. From what I understand, the family are big football fans and Aaron was well know in Atlanta and Georgia for that matter ... as was his family ... so I suspect, she already had an inkling even if Hy didn't show up. I think the lifestyle that he and his family offered was part of the attraction for Andi, but I guess it is a moot point now.