Episode 12 - 8/1 After the Final Rose - Discussion - Spoilers

Sushifan I just have to say that I enjoyed reading this last post of yours more than any other post I have read on here so far. With that said, I'm going to finish my glass of wine and thank you for the perspective.

sunshineandshit wrote:

sushifan wrote:Since it's that time of the season, when everyone has run out of things to sleuth and instead is arguing why the edit points to his/her favorite, I thought this bore reminding:

It is a mistake to "sleuth" from the edit. We've seen enough seasons of this show to know there are no static F1 or F2 boxes. The edit is a chimera, fashioned from pieces of the personalities they get every season. Not only that, but we all read different things into the edit based upon our personalities, culture, relationship history, etc. -- and once we pick a favorite based upon those things, we then have a further vested interest in our horse winning, because it validates our perspective on things. Not the most objective way to assess a situation!

Let me give you an example from my field: there was a well-publicized study done on lawyers, in which a group of people was divided up into two sections, and each person assigned the role of plaintiff's or defendant's counsel. Everyone was then given the EXACT SAME FACTS to read -- word for word -- and asked who they thought would win. Surprise! The people who were assigned the role of plaintiff's counsel overwhelmingly thought plaintiff would win, and defendant's counsel were similarly convinced for the defendant.

In TB, as in law, we pick a "winner" and then filter everything we see, through that lens. The edit is NOT evidence of who wins. This is an entertainment show, the goal of which is to generate ratings, not a love story for all the ages. At this point, TB has been around for-freaking-ever: its ability to survive and generate ratings season after season depends on its ability to shake things up and keep it fresh. So if you're going off what happened in last season's edit, or the season before, or even way back to the Ultimate Grand D-Bag Alex Michel with the whipped cream in the fantasy suite (god help me for remembering that), you're at best taking a guess, just like the unspoiled masses who watch this show for fun.

So remember, folks, at this point in the season everyone who cares to has picked their "horse" and sees everything through that lens. It's also worth repeating that the edited version of what we see on our screens has very little relation to the actual personalities behind the edit -- so the "horse" you've picked onscreen may be a complete horse's ass in real life. The opposite also can be true. I'd hate to be judged on the worst sixty seconds of my day, you know? Nor would it be fair of me to be judged on the best sixty seconds. I'm a well-meaning but flawed person, just like most people out there.

And just to be fair, I'll show my cards: I watched the beginning of this season unspoiled, to see if I could pick the winner. At the end of the first episode, I picked JP and Ames as the final two, with Ashley feeling torn between her head (Ames, Ivy League, great on paper) and heart (JP, construction, good chemistry). I had Ben F. in my top four, based purely upon the fact that I thought he was hot and I'm kind of a recovering lush who really likes good wine. 8)

Speaking of which, I'm going to pour myself a glass and go to bed. Happy watching, everyone!

I printed your post out and I am going to keep it so next season of the Bachelor I can read and reread it. It should be posted on it's own thread titled words of wisdom. Thank you for putting this show in perspective for me.

sushifan, where have you been all of my life? You rock!

It is true that this forum is a sea of bouncing pink cupcakes and it is easy for some of us to suffer tooth decay without an Ashley or Blake to come to our rescue…

However, if JP is left heartbroken at the end of this, viewers will need an explanation for the three weeks of Bentley and three more weeks of Bentley Talk. JP gets her out of Bentley Funk, just so she can do the same to him? Talk about running the lead under the bus!

Now, it wouldn’t shock me if Fleiss does something like this, just that it doesn’t appear financially viable to the series, sponsor-wise. There were many like me who were hardly supportive of Jillian dumping Reid, but at least we got to see him gain the confidence to try, try again… and he did come out as a hero. Ali’s season was rocked by a Chris L. versus Roberto battle, but nobody is complaining now with the end result. (Only Chris may hit the altar first… as is the case with most Final Twos.) Just can’t see how any non-JP ending would please the masses unless his edit really takes a nose-dive a.k.a. Amazing Race style (the show full of surprises like missed airplanes).

Of course, Chris Harrison will hint a bumpy road to the finish in his interviews, with Chrystie Conflict on the horizon. This will just be added to BentleyGate, Taiwan “What the f$%# is going on” drama and the other “bumps” we have seen. That is why we needed our extra carbs during hometown.

Good ol’ Bentley told us all: Heartbreak is worse than any illness in my opinion. It’s not just physical pain, it is emotional pain, but it has to happen

Jordan told Ashley: At the end of all this, someone… someone’s heart is going to be broken, but unless I completely… completely put myself out there and expose my vulnerability and allow myself to get hurt, there is no way that we could ever work…

Well… remember he left in the “we” as the goal here.

I can hear the Rocky theme blaring… Maybe Stallone lost, but he still got his woman, so we can’t go there with this comparison.

I think Benny Boy will survive all of this in flying colors (and increased wine sales):

Barbara: I’ve been hoping that this has been a good experience…
Ben: This is one of the best experiences of my life. It’s changed from just being an adventure to actually having feelings for this girl. She’s incredible. She’s really great and I haven’t told her that I love her. I’m not forcing anything, but I told her that I like her and I like her a lot… and I like where things are going with her… and, watching you and dad, y’know, being married all those years is something that myself and Julia have always talked about wanting to model. Y’know, dating Ashley, um, has been an eye opening experience. There were times when I’ve been looking back on the first couple years after Dad died and how I should have been a better son and I should have done things differently… and I have regrets about those things. I have come to terms with those and I realized them. I should have been there more in the beginning.
Barbara: We all were having our own separate hurts individually and I think you were really coping with it the best you could.
Ben: I should have done it differently. I should have…
Barbara: But remember that’s the past…
Ben: It is.
Barbara: It’s nice that you acknowledged that. I really appreciate it. I think that Dad is really looking down on us. It’s his birthday tomorrow… and, you know, he’s probably thinking “Well done”.
Ben: We’re doing OK.
Barbara: And I think he’d be proud of you. I really do.

His heartbreak is over. Moving on to Britt, now that the walls are down.

If not Britt, then 25 brunettes with things goin’on.

Michelle Money (last season watching their yacht date): Britt and Brad. Although it sounds really cute, not only do I not see them getting married, I don’t know if I see them friending each other on facebook. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZe7e6sPiPQ

What about Britt and Ben? She got a yacht date and took the leap into the ocean. If Benny does the same, they will be on the right track… er… splash.

sushifan wrote:Since it's that time of the season, when everyone has run out of things to sleuth and instead is arguing why the edit points to his/her favorite, I thought this bore reminding:

It is a mistake to "sleuth" from the edit. We've seen enough seasons of this show to know there are no static F1 or F2 boxes. The edit is a chimera, fashioned from pieces of the personalities they get every season. Not only that, but we all read different things into the edit based upon our personalities, culture, relationship history, etc. -- and once we pick a favorite based upon those things, we then have a further vested interest in our horse winning, because it validates our perspective on things. Not the most objective way to assess a situation!

Let me give you an example from my field: there was a well-publicized study done on lawyers, in which a group of people was divided up into two sections, and each person assigned the role of plaintiff's or defendant's counsel. Everyone was then given the EXACT SAME FACTS to read -- word for word -- and asked who they thought would win. Surprise! The people who were assigned the role of plaintiff's counsel overwhelmingly thought plaintiff would win, and defendant's counsel were similarly convinced for the defendant.

In TB, as in law, we pick a "winner" and then filter everything we see, through that lens. The edit is NOT evidence of who wins. This is an entertainment show, the goal of which is to generate ratings, not a love story for all the ages. At this point, TB has been around for-freaking-ever: its ability to survive and generate ratings season after season depends on its ability to shake things up and keep it fresh. So if you're going off what happened in last season's edit, or the season before, or even way back to the Ultimate Grand D-Bag Alex Michel with the whipped cream in the fantasy suite (god help me for remembering that), you're at best taking a guess, just like the unspoiled masses who watch this show for fun.

So remember, folks, at this point in the season everyone who cares to has picked their "horse" and sees everything through that lens. It's also worth repeating that the edited version of what we see on our screens has very little relation to the actual personalities behind the edit -- so the "horse" you've picked onscreen may be a complete horse's ass in real life. The opposite also can be true. I'd hate to be judged on the worst sixty seconds of my day, you know? Nor would it be fair of me to be judged on the best sixty seconds. I'm a well-meaning but flawed person, just like most people out there.

And just to be fair, I'll show my cards: I watched the beginning of this season unspoiled, to see if I could pick the winner. At the end of the first episode, I picked JP and Ames as the final two, with Ashley feeling torn between her head (Ames, Ivy League, great on paper) and heart (JP, construction, good chemistry). I had Ben F. in my top four, based purely upon the fact that I thought he was hot and I'm kind of a recovering lush who really likes good wine. 8)

Speaking of which, I'm going to pour myself a glass and go to bed. Happy watching, everyone!

I absolutely don't follow 'the edit' theory because 'the edit' is designed to trick us. I try to see beyond the edit and look for what is staring me in my face. To me, the edit is trying to edit around the fact that Ashley and JP cannot be seen on camera together because, even if neither of them admitted it, they have something there. It reminds me of that song "Something to talk about" because I'm talking about what I see when those two are on camera together.

I hear them whisper, you won't believe it.
They think we're lovers kept under cover,
I just ignore it but they keep sayin' we...
Laugh just a little too loud,
Stand just a little too close,
We stare just a little too long.
Maybe they're seein', somethin' we don't darlin'.


It's funny that most of the guys who left episode 5 and before, say they saw something with JP. William said that both he and Ashley gravitated towards one another and looked at each other like they were in love. As the competition got more intense towards the end, the guys are more clouded by their own interactions with the guys or don't want to say anything. Lucas wasn't going to give JP props over Ben. Ames is being Switzerland but I think he knows. Both he and Lucas might still be smarting over how JP got that rose on the last group date.

sushifan wrote:Since it's that time of the season, when everyone has run out of things to sleuth and instead is arguing why the edit points to his/her favorite, I thought this bore reminding:

It is a mistake to "sleuth" from the edit. We've seen enough seasons of this show to know there are no static F1 or F2 boxes. The edit is a chimera, fashioned from pieces of the personalities they get every season. Not only that, but we all read different things into the edit based upon our personalities, culture, relationship history, etc. -- and once we pick a favorite based upon those things, we then have a further vested interest in our horse winning, because it validates our perspective on things. Not the most objective way to assess a situation!

Let me give you an example from my field: there was a well-publicized study done on lawyers, in which a group of people was divided up into two sections, and each person assigned the role of plaintiff's or defendant's counsel. Everyone was then given the EXACT SAME FACTS to read -- word for word -- and asked who they thought would win. Surprise! The people who were assigned the role of plaintiff's counsel overwhelmingly thought plaintiff would win, and defendant's counsel were similarly convinced for the defendant.

In TB, as in law, we pick a "winner" and then filter everything we see, through that lens. The edit is NOT evidence of who wins. This is an entertainment show, the goal of which is to generate ratings, not a love story for all the ages. At this point, TB has been around for-freaking-ever: its ability to survive and generate ratings season after season depends on its ability to shake things up and keep it fresh. So if you're going off what happened in last season's edit, or the season before, or even way back to the Ultimate Grand D-Bag Alex Michel with the whipped cream in the fantasy suite (god help me for remembering that), you're at best taking a guess, just like the unspoiled masses who watch this show for fun.

So remember, folks, at this point in the season everyone who cares to has picked their "horse" and sees everything through that lens. It's also worth repeating that the edited version of what we see on our screens has very little relation to the actual personalities behind the edit -- so the "horse" you've picked onscreen may be a complete horse's ass in real life. The opposite also can be true. I'd hate to be judged on the worst sixty seconds of my day, you know? Nor would it be fair of me to be judged on the best sixty seconds. I'm a well-meaning but flawed person, just like most people out there.

And just to be fair, I'll show my cards: I watched the beginning of this season unspoiled, to see if I could pick the winner. At the end of the first episode, I picked JP and Ames as the final two, with Ashley feeling torn between her head (Ames, Ivy League, great on paper) and heart (JP, construction, good chemistry). I had Ben F. in my top four, based purely upon the fact that I thought he was hot and I'm kind of a recovering lush who really likes good wine. 8)

Speaking of which, I'm going to pour myself a glass and go to bed. Happy watching, everyone!

excellent, excellent, excellent post sushifan I'm not a fan of the cookie cutter edit and agree that each season has it's own story to tell and the producers decide after the season has started how they are going to portray that seasons lead. They now recycle contestants for the next lead, so that's going to affect the edit also.

Like you, I watched the first 3 episodes unspoiled and out of the ones I thought would be in the final 4 (JP, Ryan, William and ?? (don't remember who the 4th was but I did like West and Mickey) I pick my "horse" by who I like and who I think the Bach will choose. I'm a sucker for a love story and I know the edit does sway me, won't deny it. I don't need to back the winner, I "back" who I see the romance with as I'm a sucker for a love story ..... and if I get disappointed, so be it, but I'll hold out for what I perceive to be a happy ending. Last year it was Chantal, the year before that Chris ...and this year it's JP. If I find out tomorrow that Ben is F1... I'll be majorly disappointed again this season cause I'm not seeing it with Ben ... and nothing is going to change that.

sushifan wrote:Since it's that time of the season, when everyone has run out of things to sleuth and instead is arguing why the edit points to his/her favorite, I thought this bore reminding:

It is a mistake to "sleuth" from the edit. We've seen enough seasons of this show to know there are no static F1 or F2 boxes. The edit is a chimera, fashioned from pieces of the personalities they get every season. Not only that, but we all read different things into the edit based upon our personalities, culture, relationship history, etc. -- and once we pick a favorite based upon those things, we then have a further vested interest in our horse winning, because it validates our perspective on things. Not the most objective way to assess a situation!

Let me give you an example from my field: there was a well-publicized study done on lawyers, in which a group of people was divided up into two sections, and each person assigned the role of plaintiff's or defendant's counsel. Everyone was then given the EXACT SAME FACTS to read -- word for word -- and asked who they thought would win. Surprise! The people who were assigned the role of plaintiff's counsel
overwhelmingly thought plaintiff would win, and defendant's counsel were similarly convinced for the defendant.

In TB, as in law, we pick a "winner" and then filter everything we see, through that lens. The edit is NOT evidence of who wins. This is an entertainment show, the goal of which is to generate ratings, not a love story for all the ages. At this point, TB has been around for-freaking-ever: its ability to survive and generate ratings season after season depends on its ability to shake things up and keep it fresh. So if you're going off what happened in last season's edit, or the season before, or even way back to the Ultimate Grand D-Bag Alex Michel with the whipped cream in the fantasy suite (god help me for remembering that), you're at best taking a guess, just like the unspoiled masses who watch this show for fun.

So remember, folks, at this point in the season everyone who cares to has picked their "horse" and sees everything through that lens. It's also worth repeating that the edited version of what we see on our screens has very little relation to the actual personalities behind the edit -- so the "horse" you've picked onscreen may be a complete horse's ass in real life. The opposite also can be true. I'd hate to be judged on the worst sixty seconds of my day, you know? Nor would it be fair of me to be judged on the best sixty seconds. I'm a well-meaning but flawed person, just like most people out there. :Frown:

And just to be fair, I'll show my cards: I watched the beginning of this season unspoiled, to see if I could pick the winner. At the end of the first episode, I picked JP and Ames as the final two, with Ashley feeling torn between her head (Ames, Ivy League, great on paper) and heart (JP, construction, good chemistry). I had Ben F. in my top four, based purely upon the fact that I thought he was hot and I'm kind of a recovering lush who really likes good wine. 8)

Speaking of which, I'm going to pour myself a glass and go to bed. Happy watching, everyone!

Brilliant.

LibbyBell wrote:

pbmax wrote:No matter how the lead may feel about one, they still have a show to carry. They can't say this is the one and quit, not gonna happen. Even though she may have wanted to stop. Not saying she didn't like JP even a little bit, but he wasn't her initial guy. Like I always say, I watch, I don't come to my conclusion with just edit, I add it all up. I didn't think she was that into Bentley, I guess mainly because I knew he left. Watching her closely and realizing that she was more into Bentley than I thought. Let's be honest can you truely say if Bentley had told Ashley that he wanted her and wanted to stay, would she have told him no. The leads always fall early and will pick that person unless something goes wrong. If Bentley didn't mean much, then she should have gotten pass him after he left, not lingering around in her mind 4 cities later, after all JP was there. Love should happen naturally, meaning it should just hit you, come out of nowhere, not forcing yourself. When Bentley left, that left her having to turn around and put energy into trying to feel like she was beginning to with Bentley. I don't think she was into any of the others either including Ben, not just JP. I also feel that they wasn't really into her either. That includes Ryan too, I think his goal was bachelor. I don't believe there is a F1 but if there is, then it's JP, because she says I have someone in mind to pick, not encouraging words, imo. Sounds like since Bentley's gone I'll choose this person because I know I have to pick someone. Majority of the time that kind of relationship doesn't work. I just don't see a love story, she's just been too much in a funk to me. JMO.

You know, I keep going to CH saying emphatically-- we almost had to shut down production several times/we didn't think she'd make it through. I am positive that Ashley was not all that concerned about "B"; she just wasn't. I'm wondering if she might not have wanted to continue once she was fairly certain of her choice. I know that this won't be too popular of a theory with many but, again, I think that while Ashley was upset by "B" leaving, he was at best one of her final 2. She did not have time to decide that he was the one during the time that the first 2 episodes was filming. Once she had made her decision, we know that she did not like leading on the rest of the guys and had such a hard time letting them go. It's not fair, I hate this, crying etc... this didn't refer to letting a specific guy go, it was about having to keep them and encourage their feelings just to let them go. IMO

I'm sorry if I'm trying to stick a pin in the bubble, but I just have to call it as I see it. Ashley signed on the dotted line to do this show, that means she knew she would have to pretend. So I find it hard to believe that she would want to stop production because she didn't want to pretend any longer.

Okay let's take it back to some past season. Andrew Firestone had one to leave, he said he understood. We didn't get any production shut-down talk, nor any crying.

Jesse Palmer had one to leave, he didn't want her to leave but he understood. We didn't get any production shut-down talk, nor any crying.

Byron had one to leave, said she was still in love with her ex. He said he understood. We didn't get any production shut-down talk, nor crying.

Jen, Fabrice told her he could not marry her, she understood. We didn't get any production shut-down talk, nor crying (laughing).

Jake, one was asked to leave. We didn't even get a production shut-down there, nor crying.

Brad 2 Madison left, Brad wanted her to stay but he understood. We didn't get a production shut-down, nor crying.

DeAnna had one to leave, even though they had it as if she sent him away. Oh but we did have production shut-down talk...and lots of crying. We had moping and still talking about Graham. We had "I think my husband is here" talk too. We even got a F1. How did that turn out.

sjcaligurl wrote:

sushifan wrote:Since it's that time of the season, when everyone has run out of things to sleuth and instead is arguing why the edit points to his/her favorite, I thought this bore reminding:

It is a mistake to "sleuth" from the edit. We've seen enough seasons of this show to know there are no static F1 or F2 boxes. The edit is a chimera, fashioned from pieces of the personalities they get every season. Not only that, but we all read different things into the edit based upon our personalities, culture, relationship history, etc. -- and once we pick a favorite based upon those things, we then have a further vested interest in our horse winning, because it validates our perspective on things. Not the most objective way to assess a situation!

Let me give you an example from my field: there was a well-publicized study done on lawyers, in which a group of people was divided up into two sections, and each person assigned the role of plaintiff's or defendant's counsel. Everyone was then given the EXACT SAME FACTS to read -- word for word -- and asked who they thought would win. Surprise! The people who were assigned the role of plaintiff's counsel overwhelmingly thought plaintiff would win, and defendant's counsel were similarly convinced for the defendant.

In TB, as in law, we pick a "winner" and then filter everything we see, through that lens. The edit is NOT evidence of who wins. This is an entertainment show, the goal of which is to generate ratings, not a love story for all the ages. At this point, TB has been around for-freaking-ever: its ability to survive and generate ratings season after season depends on its ability to shake things up and keep it fresh. So if you're going off what happened in last season's edit, or the season before, or even way back to the Ultimate Grand D-Bag Alex Michel with the whipped cream in the fantasy suite (god help me for remembering that), you're at best taking a guess, just like the unspoiled masses who watch this show for fun.

So remember, folks, at this point in the season everyone who cares to has picked their "horse" and sees everything through that lens. It's also worth repeating that the edited version of what we see on our screens has very little relation to the actual personalities behind the edit -- so the "horse" you've picked onscreen may be a complete horse's ass in real life. The opposite also can be true. I'd hate to be judged on the worst sixty seconds of my day, you know? Nor would it be fair of me to be judged on the best sixty seconds. I'm a well-meaning but flawed person, just like most people out there.

And just to be fair, I'll show my cards: I watched the beginning of this season unspoiled, to see if I could pick the winner. At the end of the first episode, I picked JP and Ames as the final two, with Ashley feeling torn between her head (Ames, Ivy League, great on paper) and heart (JP, construction, good chemistry). I had Ben F. in my top four, based purely upon the fact that I thought he was hot and I'm kind of a recovering lush who really likes good wine. 8)

Speaking of which, I'm going to pour myself a glass and go to bed. Happy watching, everyone!

I absolutely don't follow 'the edit' theory because 'the edit' is designed to trick us. I try to see beyond the edit and look for what is staring me in my face. To me, the edit is trying to edit around the fact that Ashley and JP cannot be seen on camera together because, even if neither of them admitted it, they have something there. It reminds me of that song "Something to talk about" because I'm talking about what I see when those two are on camera together.

I hear them whisper, you won't believe it.
They think we're lovers kept under cover,
I just ignore it but they keep sayin' we...
Laugh just a little too loud,
Stand just a little too close,
We stare just a little too long.
Maybe they're seein', somethin' we don't darlin'.


It's funny that most of the guys who left episode 5 and before, say they saw something with JP. William said that both he and Ashley gravitated towards one another and looked at each other like they were in love. As the competition got more intense towards the end, the guys are more clouded by their own interactions with the guys or don't want to say anything. Lucas wasn't going to give JP props over Ben. Ames is being Switzerland but I think he knows. Both he and Lucas might still be smarting over how JP got that rose on the last group date.

Love your post. Especially the part I bolded. The key word being each. This is not one side. William and Ilene noticed that, and so do I.

Sushifan-- let me add my welcome and "good post"!!

JBF-- there have been a few too! You have to admit, the dancing cupcake is awfully cute, though!!
Wonder what it will be next season? maybe dancing cloverleaves and a fireman's truck?!?!

pbmax-- fair enough!! (I was just basing it off of what CH has been saying.)

First of all, sushifan... :brav:

As far as Ashley wanting to shut down production...heck yeah! After her night with JP in Hong Kong, the girl was done. When JP told her "when you feel this way about someone, that changes everything", she immediately got up to go get him the GDR.

Yes, she signed up for it, but her feelings for JP changed everything. JMHO.

Nice post sushifan! That was a very refreshing read tonight so thank you very much! The way tptb are editing this season is wacko with BNB running a muck the first couple episodes anyways.

apenglishronzie! You're in the right place, very nice post, and welcome! Hope you are finding your way around and if not always ask, I'm sure someone will point you in the right direction if you're looking for something.