Episode 12 - 8/1 After the Final Rose - Discussion - Spoilers

Coastal wrote:

bing2262 wrote:

bluwavz wrote:

Kelad9 wrote:

albean99 wrote:

JBF wrote:

Diana wrote: think her top 4 for the first night were JP, ..., Will and Ryan

What makes the situation so bad is that she does not PI about Ben that first episode. He comments on HER though. The ones she discusses on screen are Ryan, JP, Willie, Bentley, drunk Tim and Jeff. This, for me, was the first red flag against Ben being final 1. You would think they would include SOME comment suggesting that she remembered their conversation.

On the plus side, we DID see his 1 on 1 with her. Ames' was missing and Constantine's was an "extra" deleted scene.

It all depends what edit they're going for with Ben if he's the f1. It's not usual but everyone keeps saying this season is different and it is in a way because the Bentley drama went on for so long and she gave him so much of her attention. If Ben's the f2 it's just as important to show him as the alternative from early on. It's possible Ben's getting the slow burning love edit, the dark horse who slowly but surely wins her heart, the Tortoise and the Hare --- take your pick. We do have some indication about it from some DH comments.

Thanks for explaining, GrahamGal. When you said he got a group date rose I was thinking about the one he got alone. We can't say for sure that Ben didn't get time with Ashley or a kiss either time because we didn't see it but it appeared that everyone got time with her. When was it he said he'd kissed Ashley to JP & Blake?

I think he said it to JP in the Las Vegas episode but I'm not positive. So he's at least been with her before episode 4 but TPTB chose not to show that kiss. Can someone with a better memory help me out here?

I thought he said it to JP in episode 4 before the group date (please correct me if I'm wrong) and they were both talking with Blake about Ashley possibly kissing Constantine. It's not clear whether or not Ben was just joking with JP or if he really did kiss her.

Yes, this is correct. Ben ,I think jokingly told JP and Blake that he also kissed Ashley and Blake said to him" you are full of s__t. ,This was the same segment where JP admitted to the 2 guys that he is "on the way" of falling in love w Ashley and Ben said to him that he is seeing it happen and advised JP not to think too much abt other guys kissing Ashley or he will drive himself crazy. It is clear that JP was more emotionally invested by episode 4 compared to the other guys and the guys sees it and they like to tease /rag JP abt it.

Which is quite typical of a F2 edit thing.........the editors leaving that in, the jealousy, the quickness of the attraction on his part..........very typical F2, IMO

I have enjoyed reading your posts on why Ben could be final one.... but I was wondering if you see any signs/clues that JP could possibly be final one? Or does everything point to him being final two.

apenglishronzie wrote:Ok so I am a total newbie when it comes to Bachelorette postings, but I have watched all the seasons. This has probably been brought up before, but to me it seems like majority of the 2nd place guys often have some sort of emotional story. It's as though the producers realise the lead has chosen someone they have obvious chemistry with. It is then evident, that they need a filler character who the audience roots for to detract from the clear winner. Evidence for this would be Jason (single father Deanna's season) but she choose snowboarder Jesse,Chris ( dealing with grief over the passing of his mother Ali's season) Ali choose Roberto and now I feel like Ben may be occupying this dreaded position because IMO she has way more chemistry with JP, and in her PI's she says she has feelings for Ben the same way I say I ate Cheerios for breakfast. I guess we will have to wait and see but I hope it's JP!

P.S Is this the right place to post theories like this?

Enjoy posting!!!

sydney1 wrote:

pbmax wrote:

Reidiscool wrote:

Pattycake92 wrote:What was it that Ashley said about JP after their first conversation? Something about him calling her cupcake?

Something like.."he's cute but I'm not sure he'll be the one calling me cupcake in the end"

LOL! That comment struck me when I heard it.

This part is not in reply to your post. She gave him another date because she felt bad that she was in a funk on their first date. She was trying to make it up to him.
I know if I'm into a guy initially, first night, and I'm really positive that the majority too...won't be carrying on over another guy. That initial, first night guy will have my focus.

So you think she was just being nice and was not really into him, that is a different position, never thought about it that way. If that was true, why do you think she shared so much of the Bently stuff with him. I see your point and anything is possible, but I just don't believe Ashley was as into Bentley as was shown. Yes, she liked him and wanted him because she was told she could not have him. It was not real and I think she had to do what she did to get it out of her system. In the meantime she was going on flirting and testing the water with other guys, JP included. I do believe JP was on her radar from the first night , but Bentley was more of a challenge and she had to try that first. I do believe you can be interested in more than one person at a time. They just fill different needs at that time. Now , Ashley is at the finish line and she is putting it all together. I think Ashley is a very physical person and she will pick someone who she has a strong physical relationship with. I see a physical relationship with both. In the end it is Ashley decision and there are things we don't see but only going by what we think and the edit we are being shown.

Now having said all that, my personal pick for Ashley is JP. JP and Ashley appear to be on the same page in their life right now. They share the look, you know the one I am talking about.imo I don't think Ashley is a good fit for Ben. It is not just about Ben is this great guy, and they are cute together. They are at two different places in their life right now. After the HTD, I believe Ashley has given Ben the greatest gift she can give him. She gave him the ability to open himself again and realize that he can love. However, he may be her F1 and if he is I wish them the best. I do believe they really like each other, I just don't think it is love. jmo

No matter how the lead may feel about one, they still have a show to carry. They can't say this is the one and quit, not gonna happen. Even though she may have wanted to stop. Not saying she didn't like JP even a little bit, but he wasn't her initial guy. Like I always say, I watch, I don't come to my conclusion with just edit, I add it all up. I didn't think she was that into Bentley, I guess mainly because I knew he left. Watching her closely and realizing that she was more into Bentley than I thought. Let's be honest can you truely say if Bentley had told Ashley that he wanted her and wanted to stay, would she have told him no. The leads always fall early and will pick that person unless something goes wrong. If Bentley didn't mean much, then she should have gotten pass him after he left, not lingering around in her mind 4 cities later, after all JP was there. Love should happen naturally, meaning it should just hit you, come out of nowhere, not forcing yourself. When Bentley left, that left her having to turn around and put energy into trying to feel like she was beginning to with Bentley. I don't think she was into any of the others either including Ben, not just JP. I also feel that they wasn't really into her either. That includes Ryan too, I think his goal was bachelor. I don't believe there is a F1 but if there is, then it's JP, because she says I have someone in mind to pick, not encouraging words, imo. Sounds like since Bentley's gone I'll choose this person because I know I have to pick someone. Majority of the time that kind of relationship doesn't work. I just don't see a love story, she's just been too much in a funk to me. JMO.

Alanna wrote:

sjcaligurl wrote:
She wasn't in love with anyone the first night. She already liked JP as evidenced by her planting a big kiss on him at the second rose ceremony. Bentley had an edge because he'd comforted her after the roast and he made her feel better when William couldn't/didn't. By the same token, she couldn't have been all that into Bentley, IMO, if she was making out with JP the way she did in episodes 3 and 4. I think that at that point, Bentley was some mental tick she couldn't get rid of. Had he not left saying something about a dot, dot, dot I don't think she would have given him a second thought. I think it is the same part of her personality that led her to the dental profession that drives her to need every I dotted and every t crossed before she can move on. Not being that meticulous in her profession can end up in a lawsuit. It was her feelings for JP that drove her to talk to Bentley again not so much her desire to reunite again. She wanted the period - period - and once she got it, she was full force into JP ... The other guys who weren't getting time were never competing with Bentley, they were competing with JP. JP was the only one competing with Bentley and she got rid of him.

Like we've said from ep3, this season isn't F1 vs F2, it's JP vs Bentley and he was "vanquished" in ep6, which was the start of their lovestory. Afterward it's been JP vs Random TPTB Created Obstacles.

ITA!!

Coastal wrote:

philphan wrote:I must be an old stick in the mud. I didn't really find this season that boring. I finally saw a love story develop in front of my eyes and saw people having real conversation and doing things that they would do in real life. I will say that some of the dates were a little ridiculous though. Not a big fan of the boxing date or wedding photos date either.

I guess for ME it's not the adrenaline dates....it's the storyline that builds with the F1/F2 that makes for a good show. Fleiss was generous to us in that respect this season.

That is one thing that also tends to make me believe that JP isn't the F1 as that rarely happens.

The adrenaline dates just started with Jason's season and given that only Ali and Roberto have emerged since then as successful, I don't see where it bonds them anymore than not having them bonded Trista and Ryan. Neither Ashley nor JP strike me as adrenaline junkies. Most people aren't. I like these 'boring' dates as they seem to be more like real life. Given the places they traveled this time, there may have been some restrictions on those types of things. They weren't in 'Western' nations where that kind of thing is semi-popular.

pbmax wrote:No matter how the lead may feel about one, they still have a show to carry. They can't say this is the one and quit, not gonna happen. Even though she may have wanted to stop. Not saying she didn't like JP even a little bit, but he wasn't her initial guy. Like I always say, I watch, I don't come to my conclusion with just edit, I add it all up. I didn't think she was that into Bentley, I guess mainly because I knew he left. Watching her closely and realizing that she was more into Bentley than I thought. Let's be honest can you truely say if Bentley had told Ashley that he wanted her and wanted to stay, would she have told him no. The leads always fall early and will pick that person unless something goes wrong. If Bentley didn't mean much, then she should have gotten pass him after he left, not lingering around in her mind 4 cities later, after all JP was there. Love should happen naturally, meaning it should just hit you, come out of nowhere, not forcing yourself. When Bentley left, that left her having to turn around and put energy into trying to feel like she was beginning to with Bentley. I don't think she was into any of the others either including Ben, not just JP. I also feel that they wasn't really into her either. That includes Ryan too, I think his goal was bachelor. I don't believe there is a F1 but if there is, then it's JP, because she says I have someone in mind to pick, not encouraging words, imo. Sounds like since Bentley's gone I'll choose this person because I know I have to pick someone. Majority of the time that kind of relationship doesn't work. I just don't see a love story, she's just been too much in a funk to me. JMO.

You know, I keep going to CH saying emphatically-- we almost had to shut down production several times/we didn't think she'd make it through. I am positive that Ashley was not all that concerned about "B"; she just wasn't. I'm wondering if she might not have wanted to continue once she was fairly certain of her choice. I know that this won't be too popular of a theory with many but, again, I think that while Ashley was upset by "B" leaving, he was at best one of her final 2. She did not have time to decide that he was the one during the time that the first 2 episodes was filming. Once she had made her decision, we know that she did not like leading on the rest of the guys and had such a hard time letting them go. It's not fair, I hate this, crying etc... this didn't refer to letting a specific guy go, it was about having to keep them and encourage their feelings just to let them go. IMO

LibbyBell wrote:

pbmax wrote:No matter how the lead may feel about one, they still have a show to carry. They can't say this is the one and quit, not gonna happen. Even though she may have wanted to stop. Not saying she didn't like JP even a little bit, but he wasn't her initial guy. Like I always say, I watch, I don't come to my conclusion with just edit, I add it all up. I didn't think she was that into Bentley, I guess mainly because I knew he left. Watching her closely and realizing that she was more into Bentley than I thought. Let's be honest can you truely say if Bentley had told Ashley that he wanted her and wanted to stay, would she have told him no. The leads always fall early and will pick that person unless something goes wrong. If Bentley didn't mean much, then she should have gotten pass him after he left, not lingering around in her mind 4 cities later, after all JP was there. Love should happen naturally, meaning it should just hit you, come out of nowhere, not forcing yourself. When Bentley left, that left her having to turn around and put energy into trying to feel like she was beginning to with Bentley. I don't think she was into any of the others either including Ben, not just JP. I also feel that they wasn't really into her either. That includes Ryan too, I think his goal was bachelor. I don't believe there is a F1 but if there is, then it's JP, because she says I have someone in mind to pick, not encouraging words, imo. Sounds like since Bentley's gone I'll choose this person because I know I have to pick someone. Majority of the time that kind of relationship doesn't work. I just don't see a love story, she's just been too much in a funk to me. JMO.

You know, I keep going to CH saying emphatically-- we almost had to shut down production several times/we didn't think she'd make it through. I am positive that Ashley was not all that concerned about "B"; she just wasn't. I'm wondering if she might not have wanted to continue once she was fairly certain of her choice. I know that this won't be too popular of a theory with many but, again, I think that while Ashley was upset by "B" leaving, he was at best one of her final 2. She did not have time to decide that he was the one during the time that the first 2 episodes was filming. Once she had made her decision, we know that she did not like leading on the rest of the guys and had such a hard time letting them go. It's not fair, I hate this, crying etc... this didn't refer to letting a specific guy go, it was about having to keep them and encourage their feelings just to let them go. IMO

I agree. I think that too much was said in Hong Kong between her and JP. I think he wanted to shut down production too! LOL! Listen to him in his first two PIs in episode 7 and the VOs. "This is a total Mind F having to see her go out with other guys when I'm feeling like this." "I decided in Hong Kong that I didn't want to go to another destination." All those statements he was making just sounded like he knew that they were going to be together and they were making him endure the pain of the rest of the process. Even when he was talking to her during their 1on1, he was talking about something we didn't see. Maybe we will find out after this is over but I think they both wanted to stop right there on that roof top. We heard him tell his brother "I want it to end now. I want her to pick me now." It just sounds like he doesn't even think he should have to finish things and I wonder what they said to each other that night to make him so convicted.

As far as bumps ahead, I think JP has too much alone time on his hands. LOL! If he didn't sleep the night before his HTD, he's probably not sleeping at all before his fantasy date. He's heading for the same types of feelings he had for his ex where he was never sure and he may end up in a fight or flight situation which could cause some complications.

LibbyBell wrote:

You know, I keep going to CH saying emphatically-- we almost had to shut down production several times/we didn't think she'd make it through. I am positive that Ashley was not all that concerned about "B"; she just wasn't. I'm wondering if she might not have wanted to continue once she was fairly certain of her choice. I know that this won't be too popular of a theory with many but, again, I think that while Ashley was upset by "B" leaving, he was at best one of her final 2. She did not have time to decide that he was the one during the time that the first 2 episodes was filming. Once she had made her decision, we know that she did not like leading on the rest of the guys and had such a hard time letting them go. It's not fair, I hate this, crying etc... this didn't refer to letting a specific guy go, it was about having to keep them and encourage their feelings just to let them go. IMO

I think the possibility of production shutting down is a mixture of a few things. First, I do think she really liked B... that was a factor. But another factor was that aside from JP who she really liked from night one... her two other chosen for F4, Ryan and William, were starting to fade. B left right after the William comedy club debacle. With B gone, and her feelings changing for William, she probably wondered how could she go on with just one strong candidate (JP) and one iffy one (Ryan). At that point she hadn't spent much time with the other guys.

Since it's that time of the season, when everyone has run out of things to sleuth and instead is arguing why the edit points to his/her favorite, I thought this bore reminding:

It is a mistake to "sleuth" from the edit. We've seen enough seasons of this show to know there are no static F1 or F2 boxes. The edit is a chimera, fashioned from pieces of the personalities they get every season. Not only that, but we all read different things into the edit based upon our personalities, culture, relationship history, etc. -- and once we pick a favorite based upon those things, we then have a further vested interest in our horse winning, because it validates our perspective on things. Not the most objective way to assess a situation!

Let me give you an example from my field: there was a well-publicized study done on lawyers, in which a group of people was divided up into two sections, and each person assigned the role of plaintiff's or defendant's counsel. Everyone was then given the EXACT SAME FACTS to read -- word for word -- and asked who they thought would win. Surprise! The people who were assigned the role of plaintiff's counsel overwhelmingly thought plaintiff would win, and defendant's counsel were similarly convinced for the defendant.

In TB, as in law, we pick a "winner" and then filter everything we see, through that lens. The edit is NOT evidence of who wins. This is an entertainment show, the goal of which is to generate ratings, not a love story for all the ages. At this point, TB has been around for-freaking-ever: its ability to survive and generate ratings season after season depends on its ability to shake things up and keep it fresh. So if you're going off what happened in last season's edit, or the season before, or even way back to the Ultimate Grand D-Bag Alex Michel with the whipped cream in the fantasy suite (god help me for remembering that), you're at best taking a guess, just like the unspoiled masses who watch this show for fun.

So remember, folks, at this point in the season everyone who cares to has picked their "horse" and sees everything through that lens. It's also worth repeating that the edited version of what we see on our screens has very little relation to the actual personalities behind the edit -- so the "horse" you've picked onscreen may be a complete horse's ass in real life. The opposite also can be true. I'd hate to be judged on the worst sixty seconds of my day, you know? Nor would it be fair of me to be judged on the best sixty seconds. I'm a well-meaning but flawed person, just like most people out there.

And just to be fair, I'll show my cards: I watched the beginning of this season unspoiled, to see if I could pick the winner. At the end of the first episode, I picked JP and Ames as the final two, with Ashley feeling torn between her head (Ames, Ivy League, great on paper) and heart (JP, construction, good chemistry). I had Ben F. in my top four, based purely upon the fact that I thought he was hot and I'm kind of a recovering lush who really likes good wine. 8)

Speaking of which, I'm going to pour myself a glass and go to bed. Happy watching, everyone!

sushifan wrote:Since it's that time of the season, when everyone has run out of things to sleuth and instead is arguing why the edit points to his/her favorite, I thought this bore reminding:

It is a mistake to "sleuth" from the edit. We've seen enough seasons of this show to know there are no static F1 or F2 boxes. The edit is a chimera, fashioned from pieces of the personalities they get every season. Not only that, but we all read different things into the edit based upon our personalities, culture, relationship history, etc. -- and once we pick a favorite based upon those things, we then have a further vested interest in our horse winning, because it validates our perspective on things. Not the most objective way to assess a situation!

Let me give you an example from my field: there was a well-publicized study done on lawyers, in which a group of people was divided up into two sections, and each person assigned the role of plaintiff's or defendant's counsel. Everyone was then given the EXACT SAME FACTS to read -- word for word -- and asked who they thought would win. Surprise! The people who were assigned the role of plaintiff's counsel overwhelmingly thought plaintiff would win, and defendant's counsel were similarly convinced for the defendant.

In TB, as in law, we pick a "winner" and then filter everything we see, through that lens. The edit is NOT evidence of who wins. This is an entertainment show, the goal of which is to generate ratings, not a love story for all the ages. At this point, TB has been around for-freaking-ever: its ability to survive and generate ratings season after season depends on its ability to shake things up and keep it fresh. So if you're going off what happened in last season's edit, or the season before, or even way back to the Ultimate Grand D-Bag Alex Michel with the whipped cream in the fantasy suite (god help me for remembering that), you're at best taking a guess, just like the unspoiled masses who watch this show for fun.

So remember, folks, at this point in the season everyone who cares to has picked their "horse" and sees everything through that lens. It's also worth repeating that the edited version of what we see on our screens has very little relation to the actual personalities behind the edit -- so the "horse" you've picked onscreen may be a complete horse's ass in real life. The opposite also can be true. I'd hate to be judged on the worst sixty seconds of my day, you know? Nor would it be fair of me to be judged on the best sixty seconds. I'm a well-meaning but flawed person, just like most people out there.

And just to be fair, I'll show my cards: I watched the beginning of this season unspoiled, to see if I could pick the winner. At the end of the first episode, I picked JP and Ames as the final two, with Ashley feeling torn between her head (Ames, Ivy League, great on paper) and heart (JP, construction, good chemistry). I had Ben F. in my top four, based purely upon the fact that I thought he was hot and I'm kind of a recovering lush who really likes good wine. 8)

Speaking of which, I'm going to pour myself a glass and go to bed. Happy watching, everyone!

Great post!! Where have you been all season with your voice of reason???

sushifan wrote:Since it's that time of the season, when everyone has run out of things to sleuth and instead is arguing why the edit points to his/her favorite, I thought this bore reminding:

It is a mistake to "sleuth" from the edit. We've seen enough seasons of this show to know there are no static F1 or F2 boxes. The edit is a chimera, fashioned from pieces of the personalities they get every season. Not only that, but we all read different things into the edit based upon our personalities, culture, relationship history, etc. -- and once we pick a favorite based upon those things, we then have a further vested interest in our horse winning, because it validates our perspective on things. Not the most objective way to assess a situation!

Let me give you an example from my field: there was a well-publicized study done on lawyers, in which a group of people was divided up into two sections, and each person assigned the role of plaintiff's or defendant's counsel. Everyone was then given the EXACT SAME FACTS to read -- word for word -- and asked who they thought would win. Surprise! The people who were assigned the role of plaintiff's counsel overwhelmingly thought plaintiff would win, and defendant's counsel were similarly convinced for the defendant.

In TB, as in law, we pick a "winner" and then filter everything we see, through that lens. The edit is NOT evidence of who wins. This is an entertainment show, the goal of which is to generate ratings, not a love story for all the ages. At this point, TB has been around for-freaking-ever: its ability to survive and generate ratings season after season depends on its ability to shake things up and keep it fresh. So if you're going off what happened in last season's edit, or the season before, or even way back to the Ultimate Grand D-Bag Alex Michel with the whipped cream in the fantasy suite (god help me for remembering that), you're at best taking a guess, just like the unspoiled masses who watch this show for fun.

So remember, folks, at this point in the season everyone who cares to has picked their "horse" and sees everything through that lens. It's also worth repeating that the edited version of what we see on our screens has very little relation to the actual personalities behind the edit -- so the "horse" you've picked onscreen may be a complete horse's ass in real life. The opposite also can be true. I'd hate to be judged on the worst sixty seconds of my day, you know? Nor would it be fair of me to be judged on the best sixty seconds. I'm a well-meaning but flawed person, just like most people out there.

And just to be fair, I'll show my cards: I watched the beginning of this season unspoiled, to see if I could pick the winner. At the end of the first episode, I picked JP and Ames as the final two, with Ashley feeling torn between her head (Ames, Ivy League, great on paper) and heart (JP, construction, good chemistry). I had Ben F. in my top four, based purely upon the fact that I thought he was hot and I'm kind of a recovering lush who really likes good wine. 8)

Speaking of which, I'm going to pour myself a glass and go to bed. Happy watching, everyone!

sushifan wrote:Since it's that time of the season, when everyone has run out of things to sleuth and instead is arguing why the edit points to his/her favorite, I thought this bore reminding:

It is a mistake to "sleuth" from the edit. We've seen enough seasons of this show to know there are no static F1 or F2 boxes. The edit is a chimera, fashioned from pieces of the personalities they get every season. Not only that, but we all read different things into the edit based upon our personalities, culture, relationship history, etc. -- and once we pick a favorite based upon those things, we then have a further vested interest in our horse winning, because it validates our perspective on things. Not the most objective way to assess a situation!

Let me give you an example from my field: there was a well-publicized study done on lawyers, in which a group of people was divided up into two sections, and each person assigned the role of plaintiff's or defendant's counsel. Everyone was then given the EXACT SAME FACTS to read -- word for word -- and asked who they thought would win. Surprise! The people who were assigned the role of plaintiff's counsel overwhelmingly thought plaintiff would win, and defendant's counsel were similarly convinced for the defendant.

In TB, as in law, we pick a "winner" and then filter everything we see, through that lens. The edit is NOT evidence of who wins. This is an entertainment show, the goal of which is to generate ratings, not a love story for all the ages. At this point, TB has been around for-freaking-ever: its ability to survive and generate ratings season after season depends on its ability to shake things up and keep it fresh. So if you're going off what happened in last season's edit, or the season before, or even way back to the Ultimate Grand D-Bag Alex Michel with the whipped cream in the fantasy suite (god help me for remembering that), you're at best taking a guess, just like the unspoiled masses who watch this show for fun.

So remember, folks, at this point in the season everyone who cares to has picked their "horse" and sees everything through that lens. It's also worth repeating that the edited version of what we see on our screens has very little relation to the actual personalities behind the edit -- so the "horse" you've picked onscreen may be a complete horse's ass in real life. The opposite also can be true. I'd hate to be judged on the worst sixty seconds of my day, you know? Nor would it be fair of me to be judged on the best sixty seconds. I'm a well-meaning but flawed person, just like most people out there.

And just to be fair, I'll show my cards: I watched the beginning of this season unspoiled, to see if I could pick the winner. At the end of the first episode, I picked JP and Ames as the final two, with Ashley feeling torn between her head (Ames, Ivy League, great on paper) and heart (JP, construction, good chemistry). I had Ben F. in my top four, based purely upon the fact that I thought he was hot and I'm kind of a recovering lush who really likes good wine. 8)

Speaking of which, I'm going to pour myself a glass and go to bed. Happy watching, everyone!

Sushifan, I bow down to you. Awesome post. I was unspoiled the first two episodes and chose JP. I try to just look at body language... but it is hard cause the edit can twist things. Whoever ends up as F1 Ashley seems happy. Hopefully we can all have a peaceful week on the board... and enjoy the show for what it is...Entertainment... and remember your wise words.