Episode 12 - 8/1 After the Final Rose - Discussion - Spoilers

emusha wrote:Albean...
I definitely see the chemistry between Ben F and Ashley and I really think they're both attracted physically to each other as well has have an emotional bond...they 'click' enough to hang out without any real awkwardness and with both of them having to 'force' things...Im not sure where I posted this but I even think Ben has a much stronger connection with Ashley than CL ever did with Ali... I think the process has been gradual for Ashley more in line with how this show works vs. Ali who's been totally infatuated with Roberto from the very beginning -- the only one that would be an equivalent of Ben for Ali would be Frank if he had stayed and reciprocated her feelings...with that said...
I really think Ashley and JP's connection is very strong and much stronger than any other one...their intimacy has been increasing exponentially through the epis...yes, it's also a fair point they don't get a lot of screen time/date time but the level of physical and emotional intimacy between them, the level of lack of boundaries between them doesn't really have much of a comparison in terms of how constant and immediately reciprocated physical contact is between then and the depth of their vulnerability that they show each other their deepest insecurities and thoughts. I think Ben has taken the relationship much slower and been more hesitant throughout with Ashley even having to egg him on a little bit.

I definitely see where you're coming from and see some of the things you do as well...but the magnitude just doesn't compare with JP at this point in the game IMHO

Samantharose wrote:

ironcat wrote:

pavalygurl wrote:

ironcat wrote:

pavalygurl wrote:

ironcat wrote:We don't know that they have been hiding any of the chemistry with Ben. Yes, they have cut out certain moments of them together, but there's no evidence that they were romantic moments, could have just been more bland kissing that wouldn't have changed anyone's mind about them. CH said the scenes cut out of HTD were fun and playful, he didn't say they were romantic or steamy. My speculation is that if they had more romantic or steamy scenes between Ash and Ben to show, they would have. They didn't.

I know Ben supporters see this strong romantic connection he has with her, but frankly, they are the only ones IMO. The poll on the ABC website for who would have the best FD has JP ahead of Ben by 51% to 34% at last count. And that's after the promo tried to make it sound like JP's date was a disaster. The public ain't buying it.

Ironcat, you are most likely correct that JP is F1. However, I continually see you using polls as a basis to defend why JP is popular. First of all, the only opinion that counts is Ashley's and yes I do think she chose JP. But secondly, these kind of polls are easy to manipulate. I have seen on other boards folks have campaigns to vote for their favorite by voting multiple (into the hundreds) of times. So the polls mean little to nothing to me. JMHO

I agree that polls are far from an exact science, but we don't have any other method of measuring popularity. And I think polls overall are more accurate to rely on, than is one person saying that they spoke with 6 of their friends and they all have changed their minds and now like Ben over JP (or vice versa).

I don't understand why it is important to measure popularity. If JP "wins" as you and I seem to agree, he is popular with Ashley as it needs to be. The rest of us don't need to be convinced as we don't have to spend time with him IRL.

It's only important in that it plays into whether people think it's "too obvious" or not. For the average viewer, in most cases, the fan favorite is also the one most think the lead will pick. Las season, despite the sentiment on FORT, it was Emily, the season before that, Chris L. So for many sleuthers, if someone is the fan favorite, and thus too obvious, they must not really be the F1 because Fleiss wouldn't make it that easy. My point is, what if the lead actually picks the person who ultimately becomes the fan favorite (even if it was the producers' intentions for someone else to take that "crown", and they miscalculated?) That's exactly what I think happened this year.

I think that's exactly what happened. JP is not classically handsome. Some might mistake his initial appearance of being bald and buff as being rather off putting. But when you've got this big bad ass talking about cupcakes, his feelings, being vulnerable, and roller skating, the audience just melts.

emusha wrote:Albean...
I definitely see the chemistry between Ben F and Ashley and I really think they're both attracted physically to each other as well has have an emotional bond...they 'click' enough to hang out without any real awkwardness and with both of them having to 'force' things -- it seems very natural...Im not sure where I posted this but I even think Ben has a much stronger connection with Ashley than CL ever did with Ali... I think the process has been gradual for Ashley more in line with how this show works vs. Ali who's been totally infatuated with Roberto from the very beginning -- the only one that would be an equivalent of Ben for Ali would be Frank if he had stayed and reciprocated her feelings...with that said...
I really think Ashley and JP's connection is very strong and much stronger than any other one...their intimacy has been increasing exponentially through the epis...yes, it's also a fair point they don't get a lot of screen time/date time but the level of physical and emotional intimacy between them, the level of lack of boundaries between them doesn't really have much of a comparison in terms of how constant and immediately reciprocated physical contact is between then and the depth of their vulnerability that they show each other their deepest insecurities and thoughts. I think Ben has taken the relationship much slower and been more hesitant throughout with Ashley even having to egg him on a little bit.

I definitely see where you're coming from and see some of the things you do as well...but the magnitude just doesn't compare with JP at this point in the game IMHO

pbmax wrote:

Eagle Eye wrote:

pbmax wrote:

Eagle Eye wrote:

pbmax wrote:

Love_Me wrote:

For everyone who still thinks it can't be JP because it's too obvious

I don't think JP became too obvious until Bentley left for some viewers.

And for some, not until HK. If she continues with this charade. Like I said before JP was there in the beginning along with Bentley. Why didn't she see him then.

Ben was there in the beginning as well, was he not? Why didn't she see HIM then?

He sure was, and she didn't see him either.

Oh, she saw JP, all right. I'm not sure to which "charade" you're referring, but it's clear to me that JP caught her eye from the beginning. She was temporarily infatuated with Bentley and once she got that out of her system, it was JP all the way.

Had JP caught her eye from the beginning, she wouldn't have been temporarily infatuated with Bentley. It took her up until HK to get it out of her system and she only had to speak the words (LOL) meanwhile JP was in the cooler on the shelf.

Last season TPTB was doing their magic with Chantal, so it wouldn't be so obvious and distract us, because she was the F1. That's seems to be the consensus this time too. Create the drama, because it's so obvious. I notice in CH blog, that out of the 4 guys, that his comment on JP's date was the shortest. He never have much to say about him. I wonder why.

CHO wrote:

albean99 wrote:So let's look at this from different outcomes:

1. JP is the f1 like most seem to think. They show a lot of chemistry with him while hiding a lot of it with Ben although there's been more lately. I keep hearing it's a done deal although am not clear what the viewers think.

- There clearly been a jealousy edit with JP which doesn't appear to be usual for the f1. Will there be more to come?

- We also heard a lot about him being heartbroken and the preview makes it seem that will come into play at the FD. Foreshadowing or smokescreen?

- It would have been easy to show more of Ashley's interactions with Ben to play him up as the frontrunner. We've seen pics of what they've cut out of his last 2 dates so know there's romantic and fun stuff on the cutting room floor.

- Reversely they could have cooled down the edit with JP but didn't. They also emphasized the fun date vs the serious date with Ben last week. Why?

- I know I keep harping on it but the length of time of his dates is so strange if he's f1. Both of his first 2 dates were evening only and the 2nd one had Ashley saying she wanted to make up for not giving him her full attention on the 1st one so why wouldn't they give them a longer date like everyone else got? The HTD was also noticeably shorter with it ending while light outside. It was obviously planned that way because of the timing of the meal.

2. Ben as the f1. We see a lot more of Ashley & Ben talking but also some sweet interactions in their dates. There's a sense of things getting progressively more serious as time goes by. The 1st time we really see her with Ben is the orphanage date but by the HTD's it's clear he's going to be there for a while. Ben gets long dates and a lot of time to really get to know Ashley including the overnight that they're continually telling us didn't include shared rooms. Is everyone protesting too much? I doubt they shared a room but saying so repeatedly helps us to stop thinking about the time they did have to spend together. They certainly didn't show us. Others think it's to send a message to JP that nothing happened.

- CH talked about Ben being the dark horse and even mentioned him slowly but surely captivating Ashley. Now he seems to be switching to Constantine as the dark horse. Maybe something to do with the latest commercial that makes it seem like he's the one she's saying "want to get out of here?" to. Are they trying to make it seem like Ben leaving and if so why?

- Why are we seeing more chemistry with JP as f2 than Ben as f1? Obvious answer is to hide Ben, make it likely that JP will win, and then Fleiss can swoop in and fool us (and RS).

- If Ben is getting the Tortoise vs the Hare edit then perhaps it's not necessary to introduce doubt for him other than in the previews.

- Lastly we've had a lot of talk about love with Ben in PI's, VO's, and even a little at the 2nd date. So far we haven't heard it with anyone else.

I completely understand why most think JP is the f1 and I'm not even sure he's not but the edit is the thing that makes me wonder if there's going to be a surprise ending. It's not like Fleiss to give us the f1 on a platter. Will there be enough in the next 2 episodes to make it seem like he won't be and if so does that mean he is or possibly to show why Ashley doesn't pick him? So many questions but only a week and a half until the answers (unless we get spoilers out of the tapings of course).

Absolutely stupendous post, Albean. Fleiss is doing his job and doing it well. He has never handed the show to us on a silver platter. (I know there is a first for everything). I think the length of the dates is very significant. I think the fact that Ashley has told Ben she will miss him - that she agrees that she likes where the relationship is going -- is significant. And that she has told us the viewers that she thinks she is falling for Ben and that at last she sees a happy ending at the end of all of this.

I think those of us who see something with Ben could be fooled also. At times she does appear to have more chemistry and intimate kisses with JP. But the amount of questionning she does with JP does not seem good - or convincing of a loving relationship. Color me crazy but I listen when Ben talks - and there is something about what he says and how he says it that makes me believe him. He has told us along the way how his feelings are progressing. He has not swayed from that. To me he appears to be very sincere and honest. I personally am not comfortable with JP (his edit). I didn't care for the way he said that dating was monotonous in NYC (M&G - night 1). That seemed an odd way of describing your dating experiences. He has rushed into this relationship with Ashley - beng totally sure - head over heels - she should know how he feels --- to telling his mother he's not there yet. My feeling is that - if A and he were on the same page - he would be able to tell how A was feeling about him - and it would be getting better and better each time. So I am not feeling real secure hearing what JP has to say.

How come A and Ben went on the suspension bridge - nothing said or hinted about that being an adrenalin date? How come we did not see any serious conversation with Ben's Mother or sister - but yet she was pulling at her sleeves with Ben's mother and seemed nervous. Why be nervous if there is nothing there? And now in the FD we are going to have Ben and A doing an intimate night swim. Could be nothing - maybe they'll end up in a splash fight - but I do not think Ben can be discounted as F1 - yet !

emusha wrote:I hope one of the journalists will help clear this up in her media tour post-show
I don't think it was instant but JP was prolly in the top 5 for her night 1

chicagoowl wrote:

emusha wrote:I hope one of the journalists will help clear this up in her media tour post-show
I don't think it was instant but JP was prolly in the top 5 for her night 1

Yes... even after JP lost the coin toss date, she told him to hang in there and enjoy the ride. She always kept reassuring him that there would be "good things to come". She had him pegged at F1 or F2 from the first night.

GrahamGal wrote:

chicagoowl wrote:

emusha wrote:I hope one of the journalists will help clear this up in her media tour post-show
I don't think it was instant but JP was prolly in the top 5 for her night 1

Yes... even after JP lost the coin toss date, she told him to hang in there and enjoy the ride. She always kept reassuring him that there would be "good things to come". She had him pegged at F1 or F2 from the first night.

Yep and even though he lost the coin flip he got a kiss and a 1-1 the next week with more kisses. Ben on the other hand got a group date rose, no date the next week and no kisses either week.