Episode 12 - 8/1 After the Final Rose - Discussion - Spoilers

pavalygurl wrote:

ironcat wrote:We don't know that they have been hiding any of the chemistry with Ben. Yes, they have cut out certain moments of them together, but there's no evidence that they were romantic moments, could have just been more bland kissing that wouldn't have changed anyone's mind about them. CH said the scenes cut out of HTD were fun and playful, he didn't say they were romantic or steamy. My speculation is that if they had more romantic or steamy scenes between Ash and Ben to show, they would have. They didn't.

I know Ben supporters see this strong romantic connection he has with her, but frankly, they are the only ones IMO. The poll on the ABC website for who would have the best FD has JP ahead of Ben by 51% to 34% at last count. And that's after the promo tried to make it sound like JP's date was a disaster. The public ain't buying it.

Ironcat, you are most likely correct that JP is F1. However, I continually see you using polls as a basis to defend why JP is popular. First of all, the only opinion that counts is Ashley's and yes I do think she chose JP. But secondly, these kind of polls are easy to manipulate. I have seen on other boards folks have campaigns to vote for their favorite by voting multiple (into the hundreds) of times. So the polls mean little to nothing to me. JMHO

albean99 wrote:So let's look at this from different outcomes:

1. JP is the f1 like most seem to think. They show a lot of chemistry with him while hiding a lot of it with Ben although there's been more lately. I keep hearing it's a done deal although am not clear what the viewers think.

- There clearly been a jealousy edit with JP which doesn't appear to be usual for the f1. Will there be more to come?

- We also heard a lot about him being heartbroken and the preview makes it seem that will come into play at the FD. Foreshadowing or smokescreen?

- It would have been easy to show more of Ashley's interactions with Ben to play him up as the frontrunner. We've seen pics of what they've cut out of his last 2 dates so know there's romantic and fun stuff on the cutting room floor.

- Reversely they could have cooled down the edit with JP but didn't. They also emphasized the fun date vs the serious date with Ben last week. Why?

- I know I keep harping on it but the length of time of his dates is so strange if he's f1. Both of his first 2 dates were evening only and the 2nd one had Ashley saying she wanted to make up for not giving him her full attention on the 1st one so why wouldn't they give them a longer date like everyone else got? The HTD was also noticeably shorter with it ending while light outside. It was obviously planned that way because of the timing of the meal.

2. Ben as the f1. We see a lot more of Ashley & Ben talking but also some sweet interactions in their dates. There's a sense of things getting progressively more serious as time goes by. The 1st time we really see her with Ben is the orphanage date but by the HTD's it's clear he's going to be there for a while. Ben gets long dates and a lot of time to really get to know Ashley including the overnight that they're continually telling us didn't include shared rooms. Is everyone protesting too much? I doubt they shared a room but saying so repeatedly helps us to stop thinking about the time they did have to spend together. They certainly didn't show us. Others think it's to send a message to JP that nothing happened.

- CH talked about Ben being the dark horse and even mentioned him slowly but surely captivating Ashley. Now he seems to be switching to Constantine as the dark horse. Maybe something to do with the latest commercial that makes it seem like he's the one she's saying "want to get out of here?" to. Are they trying to make it seem like Ben leaving and if so why?

- Why are we seeing more chemistry with JP as f2 than Ben as f1? Obvious answer is to hide Ben, make it likely that JP will win, and then Fleiss can swoop in and fool us (and RS).

- If Ben is getting the Tortoise vs the Hare edit then perhaps it's not necessary to introduce doubt for him other than in the previews.

- Lastly we've had a lot of talk about love with Ben in PI's, VO's, and even a little at the 2nd date. So far we haven't heard it with anyone else.

I completely understand why most think JP is the f1 and I'm not even sure he's not but the edit is the thing that makes me wonder if there's going to be a surprise ending. It's not like Fleiss to give us the f1 on a platter. Will there be enough in the next 2 episodes to make it seem like he won't be and if so does that mean he is or possibly to show why Ashley doesn't pick him? So many questions but only a week and a half until the answers (unless we get spoilers out of the tapings of course).

ironcat wrote:

pavalygurl wrote:

ironcat wrote:We don't know that they have been hiding any of the chemistry with Ben. Yes, they have cut out certain moments of them together, but there's no evidence that they were romantic moments, could have just been more bland kissing that wouldn't have changed anyone's mind about them. CH said the scenes cut out of HTD were fun and playful, he didn't say they were romantic or steamy. My speculation is that if they had more romantic or steamy scenes between Ash and Ben to show, they would have. They didn't.

I know Ben supporters see this strong romantic connection he has with her, but frankly, they are the only ones IMO. The poll on the ABC website for who would have the best FD has JP ahead of Ben by 51% to 34% at last count. And that's after the promo tried to make it sound like JP's date was a disaster. The public ain't buying it.

Ironcat, you are most likely correct that JP is F1. However, I continually see you using polls as a basis to defend why JP is popular. First of all, the only opinion that counts is Ashley's and yes I do think she chose JP. But secondly, these kind of polls are easy to manipulate. I have seen on other boards folks have campaigns to vote for their favorite by voting multiple (into the hundreds) of times. So the polls mean little to nothing to me. JMHO

I agree that polls are far from an exact science, but we don't have any other method of measuring popularity. And I think polls overall are more accurate to rely on, than is one person saying that they spoke with 6 of their friends and they all have changed their minds and now like Ben over JP (or vice versa).

pavalygurl wrote:

ironcat wrote:

pavalygurl wrote:

ironcat wrote:We don't know that they have been hiding any of the chemistry with Ben. Yes, they have cut out certain moments of them together, but there's no evidence that they were romantic moments, could have just been more bland kissing that wouldn't have changed anyone's mind about them. CH said the scenes cut out of HTD were fun and playful, he didn't say they were romantic or steamy. My speculation is that if they had more romantic or steamy scenes between Ash and Ben to show, they would have. They didn't.

I know Ben supporters see this strong romantic connection he has with her, but frankly, they are the only ones IMO. The poll on the ABC website for who would have the best FD has JP ahead of Ben by 51% to 34% at last count. And that's after the promo tried to make it sound like JP's date was a disaster. The public ain't buying it.

Ironcat, you are most likely correct that JP is F1. However, I continually see you using polls as a basis to defend why JP is popular. First of all, the only opinion that counts is Ashley's and yes I do think she chose JP. But secondly, these kind of polls are easy to manipulate. I have seen on other boards folks have campaigns to vote for their favorite by voting multiple (into the hundreds) of times. So the polls mean little to nothing to me. JMHO

I agree that polls are far from an exact science, but we don't have any other method of measuring popularity. And I think polls overall are more accurate to rely on, than is one person saying that they spoke with 6 of their friends and they all have changed their minds and now like Ben over JP (or vice versa).

I don't understand why it is important to measure popularity. If JP "wins" as you and I seem to agree, he is popular with Ashley as it needs to be. The rest of us don't need to be convinced as we don't have to spend time with him IRL.

ironcat wrote:

Coastal wrote:

ironcat wrote:For everyone who still thinks it can't be JP because it's too obvious, try to imagine what other options the producers had for editing the show that would have been less obvious, and what that finished product would have looked like, and whether it would have gotten the kind of ratings that this show did. IOW, if they cut out much of the kissing/chemistry with JP, what exactly would we have been watching and why? Yes, I know some people still believe Ashley had this smoking hot connection with Ben, and it's all on the cutting room floor. But what if she just didn't? Do the producers then put together a boring show, where Ashley is shown to have no real chemistry with any of her final 4 guys, in the opinions of the majority of viewers, just for the sake of hiding the final outcome?

I am going to ask this and probably get bombarded for doing so, but last season with Brad.......who felt that the connection between Brad and Chantal was smoking hot?? Yet we all know she was F2, so how is that differrent?

First of all, let me state that having people respond to you with a differing opinion, instead of just agreeing with you, does NOT constitute being bombarded. (And playing the victim is not an attractive quality, and it doesn't work on me, just sayin'.)

Secondly, I don't think that men and women can be compared when it comes to their way of dealing with physical vs emotional connection; as several have said, including Lucas, our resident male on this board, men tend to separate sex from love, and have no problem making out with the "sexy" one while pining after the one they really want. Women typically don't do this.

Thirdly, you sort of missed my point. Let's pose the hypothetical that Brad HAD actually picked Chantal, the one he DID have the hot chemistry with. Would they have hidden all of that in the edit? Not if there was no other hot sexy chemistry to show with any of the other women they wouldn't have. Brad made it an easy editing decision for the producers in that he picked the more proper, reserved woman, and not the one he had the upfront, obvious chemistry with. But assuming Ashley did the opposite, there really wasn't any other way to edit and end up with an interesting show other than the way they did it.

People have to realize when analyzing the edit that the edit does not come first, the facts on the ground do (ie, who the lead picks). The producers then construct the edit to make the most compelling show they can based on what they have to work with. Since every season, they have something different to work with (and sometimes an outcome that is particularly unique), the edit can't be determined in advance, nor can it always be recycled in its entirety from the previous season, or sometimes from any season.

Moving on to Bentley, it appears to me that Ashley, after spending some time getting to know her top 4 picks, who were Bentley, JP, William, and Ryan, realized by the time the third episode was playing out, that only 2 were still of interest, and they became her co-frontrunners. These would be Bentley and JP. (William and Ryan both fell out of favor at the roast, for totally different reasons.) When Bentley decided to leave, remember she hadn't even been on one date with JP, either solo or a group date, but she had kissed him and had a connection with him that even she didn't fully understand. But Bentley, based on having been on two group dates with him, was still more familiar to her than JP at the time that he left, so of course, she freaked out. The day before, 2 of her presumed F4 had cast a lot of doubt on themselves (William with his behavior at the roast, Ryan because that makeout session kind of turned her off physically to him), and now, the guy she felt she knew best, and who she felt REALLY liked her, drops out, leaving her with one guy who she likes, but hasn't even had a date with. Turned out to be a great date of course, but she is not allowed by the show to put all her eggs in one basket, so she needs, once they go abroad, to try to find some connection with a few of the guys she had previously overlooked. Enter Dino, Ames and Ben, and she feels comfortable enough with all three (and none of them are too aggressive with her) to consider bringing them all to the end, along with JP. So she now has her F4, but she still had the Bentley "what if" hanging over her head, and once she started realizing she was falling for JP, needed to close that loop, so she wouldn't ever wonder, before going further. When he came back (I'm sure she would have been happy with just a phonecall, but of course the show was going to pull out all the stops, and it also gave her the false impression that Bentley really WANTED to see her again, which wasn't the case), she was able, with fresh eyes and more confidence in herself, to finally see that Bentley was really a BS artist, and he wasn't as into her as he had pretended to be, and that "reality check" woke her up and made her recognize/appreciate the great guy who actually WAS into her, and she couldn't wait to let him know what was happening, which she did when they had their date 2 days later.

ironcat wrote:

pavalygurl wrote:

ironcat wrote:

pavalygurl wrote:

ironcat wrote:We don't know that they have been hiding any of the chemistry with Ben. Yes, they have cut out certain moments of them together, but there's no evidence that they were romantic moments, could have just been more bland kissing that wouldn't have changed anyone's mind about them. CH said the scenes cut out of HTD were fun and playful, he didn't say they were romantic or steamy. My speculation is that if they had more romantic or steamy scenes between Ash and Ben to show, they would have. They didn't.

I know Ben supporters see this strong romantic connection he has with her, but frankly, they are the only ones IMO. The poll on the ABC website for who would have the best FD has JP ahead of Ben by 51% to 34% at last count. And that's after the promo tried to make it sound like JP's date was a disaster. The public ain't buying it.

Ironcat, you are most likely correct that JP is F1. However, I continually see you using polls as a basis to defend why JP is popular. First of all, the only opinion that counts is Ashley's and yes I do think she chose JP. But secondly, these kind of polls are easy to manipulate. I have seen on other boards folks have campaigns to vote for their favorite by voting multiple (into the hundreds) of times. So the polls mean little to nothing to me. JMHO

I agree that polls are far from an exact science, but we don't have any other method of measuring popularity. And I think polls overall are more accurate to rely on, than is one person saying that they spoke with 6 of their friends and they all have changed their minds and now like Ben over JP (or vice versa).

I don't understand why it is important to measure popularity. If JP "wins" as you and I seem to agree, he is popular with Ashley as it needs to be. The rest of us don't need to be convinced as we don't have to spend time with him IRL.

It's only important in that it plays into whether people think it's "too obvious" or not. For the average viewer, in most cases, the fan favorite is also the one most think the lead will pick. Las season, despite the sentiment on FORT, it was Emily, the season before that, Chris L. So for many sleuthers, if someone is the fan favorite, and thus too obvious, they must not really be the F1 because Fleiss wouldn't make it that easy. My point is, what if the lead actually picks the person who ultimately becomes the fan favorite (even if it was the producers' intentions for someone else to take that "crown", and they miscalculated?) That's exactly what I think happened this year.

CHO wrote:

Absolutely stupendous post, Albean. Fleiss is doing his job and doing it well. He has never handed the show to us on a silver platter. (I know there is a first for everything). I think the length of the dates is very significant. I think the fact that Ashley has told Ben she will miss him - that she agrees that she likes where the relationship is going -- is significant. And that she has told us the viewers that she thinks she is falling for Ben and that at last she sees a happy ending at the end of all of this.

I think those of us who see something with Ben could be fooled also. At times she does appear to have more chemistry and intimate kisses with JP. But the amount of questionning she does with JP does not seem good - or convincing of a loving relationship. Color me crazy but I listen when Ben talks - and there is something about what he says and how he says it that makes me believe him. He has told us along the way how his feelings are progressing. He has not swayed from that. To me he appears to be very sincere and honest. I personally am not comfortable with JP (his edit). I didn't care for the way he said that dating was monotonous in NYC (M&G - night 1). That seemed an odd way of describing your dating experiences. He has rushed into this relationship with Ashley - beng totally sure - head over heels - she should know how he feels --- to telling his mother he's not there yet. My feeling is that - if A and he were on the same page - he would be able to tell how A was feeling about him - and it would be getting better and better each time. So I am not feeling real secure hearing what JP has to say.

How come A and Ben went on the suspension bridge - nothing said or hinted about that being an adrenalin date? How come we did not see any serious conversation with Ben's Mother or sister - but yet she was pulling at her sleeves with Ben's mother and seemed nervous. Why be nervous if there is nothing there? And now in the FD we are going to have Ben and A doing an intimate night swim. Could be nothing - maybe they'll end up in a splash fight - but I do not think Ben can be discounted as F1 - yet !