Episode 12 - 8/1 After the Final Rose - Discussion - Spoilers

Excellent analysis IMO, Ironcat!

ironcat:
People have to realize when analyzing the edit that the edit does not come first, the facts on the ground do (ie, who the lead picks). The producers then construct the edit to make the most compelling show they can based on what they have to work with. Since every season, they have something different to work with (and sometimes an outcome that is particularly unique), the edit can't be determined in advance, nor can it always be recycled in its entirety from the previous season, or sometimes from any season.

Love your post ironcat, especially this paragraph.

So let's look at this from different outcomes:

1. JP is the f1 like most seem to think. They show a lot of chemistry with him while hiding a lot of it with Ben although there's been more lately. I keep hearing it's a done deal although am not clear what the viewers think.

- There clearly been a jealousy edit with JP which doesn't appear to be usual for the f1. Will there be more to come?

- We also heard a lot about him being heartbroken and the preview makes it seem that will come into play at the FD. Foreshadowing or smokescreen?

- It would have been easy to show more of Ashley's interactions with Ben to play him up as the frontrunner. We've seen pics of what they've cut out of his last 2 dates so know there's romantic and fun stuff on the cutting room floor.

- Reversely they could have cooled down the edit with JP but didn't. They also emphasized the fun date vs the serious date with Ben last week. Why?

- I know I keep harping on it but the length of time of his dates is so strange if he's f1. Both of his first 2 dates were evening only and the 2nd one had Ashley saying she wanted to make up for not giving him her full attention on the 1st one so why wouldn't they give them a longer date like everyone else got? The HTD was also noticeably shorter with it ending while light outside. It was obviously planned that way because of the timing of the meal.

2. Ben as the f1. We see a lot more of Ashley & Ben talking but also some sweet interactions in their dates. There's a sense of things getting progressively more serious as time goes by. The 1st time we really see her with Ben is the orphanage date but by the HTD's it's clear he's going to be there for a while. Ben gets long dates and a lot of time to really get to know Ashley including the overnight that they're continually telling us didn't include shared rooms. Is everyone protesting too much? I doubt they shared a room but saying so repeatedly helps us to stop thinking about the time they did have to spend together. They certainly didn't show us. Others think it's to send a message to JP that nothing happened.

- CH talked about Ben being the dark horse and even mentioned him slowly but surely captivating Ashley. Now he seems to be switching to Constantine as the dark horse. Maybe something to do with the latest commercial that makes it seem like he's the one she's saying "want to get out of here?" to. Are they trying to make it seem like Ben leaving and if so why?

- Why are we seeing more chemistry with JP as f2 than Ben as f1? Obvious answer is to hide Ben, make it likely that JP will win, and then Fleiss can swoop in and fool us (and RS).

- If Ben is getting the Tortoise vs the Hare edit then perhaps it's not necessary to introduce doubt for him other than in the previews.

- Lastly we've had a lot of talk about love with Ben in PI's, VO's, and even a little at the 2nd date. So far we haven't heard it with anyone else.

I completely understand why most think JP is the f1 and I'm not even sure he's not but the edit is the thing that makes me wonder if there's going to be a surprise ending. It's not like Fleiss to give us the f1 on a platter. Will there be enough in the next 2 episodes to make it seem like he won't be and if so does that mean he is or possibly to show why Ashley doesn't pick him? So many questions but only a week and a half until the answers (unless we get spoilers out of the tapings of course).

We don't know that they have been hiding any of the chemistry with Ben. Yes, they have cut out certain moments of them together, but there's no evidence that they were romantic moments, could have just been more bland kissing that wouldn't have changed anyone's mind about them. CH said the scenes cut out of HTD were fun and playful, he didn't say they were romantic or steamy. My speculation is that if they had more romantic or steamy scenes between Ash and Ben to show, they would have. They didn't.

I know Ben supporters see this strong romantic connection he has with her, but frankly, they are the only ones IMO. The poll on the ABC website for who would have the best FD has JP ahead of Ben by 51% to 34% at last count. And that's after the promo tried to make it sound like JP's date was a disaster. The public ain't buying it.

albean99 wrote:
- I know I keep harping on it but the length of time of his dates is so strange if he's f1. Both of his first 2 dates were evening only and the 2nd one had Ashley saying she wanted to make up for not giving him her full attention on the 1st one so why wouldn't they give them a longer date like everyone else got? The HTD was also noticeably shorter with it ending while light outside. It was obviously planned that way because of the timing of the meal.

(snipped for brevity)

albean, I totally agree with your questions. The only thing I can think about the bolded above is that possibly Ashley may have been asking for little bits and pieces of time with JP early on and especially after the B thing. It could be that TPTB were willing to do this, in part, because of the B thing and how they knew that it would appear in the edit. However, anytime there is a favor done, you have to pay the piper. This payment came in the form of shorter dates. We do know that Ali was always finding time here and there to sneak off into a corner with Roberto... I find this a possibility for Ashley too. Again, only speculation on my part but it is a scenario that I can rationalize and make work in my mind. But, as you say, we won't really find out until we see how it plays out!!

ETA--

ironcat wrote:We don't know that they have been hiding any of the chemistry with Ben. Yes, they have cut out certain moments of them together, but there's no evidence that they were romantic moments, could have just been more bland kissing that wouldn't have changed anyone's mind about them. CH said the scenes cut out of HTD were fun and playful, he didn't say they were romantic or steamy. My speculation is that if they had more romantic or steamy scenes between Ash and Ben to show, they would have. They didn't.

You are correct IC-- I think if there was something to show then they would be showing it since they are wanting to shift the positions at this point in time. I also think that this is the way that Ashley is choosing to handle the different feelings. A while back, it was speculated that Constantine may be her F2 because there weren't the feelings there. It could be that once Constantine took himself out she kept her relationship with Ben the way it's always been-- fun and playful. There has been some chemistry, ie: kissing and such but, for the most part her interactions have been playful with Ben. TPTB would love for the chemistry to be equal so they could try to present it to us this way. The truth is you can usually tell which guy the lead is more involved with!

albean99 wrote:So let's look at this from different outcomes:

1. JP is the f1 like most seem to think. They show a lot of chemistry with him while hiding a lot of it with Ben although there's been more lately. I keep hearing it's a done deal although am not clear what the viewers think.

- There clearly been a jealousy edit with JP which doesn't appear to be usual for the f1. Will there be more to come?

- We also heard a lot about him being heartbroken and the preview makes it seem that will come into play at the FD. Foreshadowing or smokescreen?

- It would have been easy to show more of Ashley's interactions with Ben to play him up as the frontrunner. We've seen pics of what they've cut out of his last 2 dates so know there's romantic and fun stuff on the cutting room floor.

- Reversely they could have cooled down the edit with JP but didn't. They also emphasized the fun date vs the serious date with Ben last week. Why?

- I know I keep harping on it but the length of time of his dates is so strange if he's f1. Both of his first 2 dates were evening only and the 2nd one had Ashley saying she wanted to make up for not giving him her full attention on the 1st one so why wouldn't they give them a longer date like everyone else got? The HTD was also noticeably shorter with it ending while light outside. It was obviously planned that way because of the timing of the meal.

2. Ben as the f1. We see a lot more of Ashley & Ben talking but also some sweet interactions in their dates. There's a sense of things getting progressively more serious as time goes by. The 1st time we really see her with Ben is the orphanage date but by the HTD's it's clear he's going to be there for a while. Ben gets long dates and a lot of time to really get to know Ashley including the overnight that they're continually telling us didn't include shared rooms. Is everyone protesting too much? I doubt they shared a room but saying so repeatedly helps us to stop thinking about the time they did have to spend together. They certainly didn't show us. Others think it's to send a message to JP that nothing happened.

- CH talked about Ben being the dark horse and even mentioned him slowly but surely captivating Ashley. Now he seems to be switching to Constantine as the dark horse. Maybe something to do with the latest commercial that makes it seem like he's the one she's saying "want to get out of here?" to. Are they trying to make it seem like Ben leaving and if so why?

- Why are we seeing more chemistry with JP as f2 than Ben as f1? Obvious answer is to hide Ben, make it likely that JP will win, and then Fleiss can swoop in and fool us (and RS).

- If Ben is getting the Tortoise vs the Hare edit then perhaps it's not necessary to introduce doubt for him other than in the previews.

- Lastly we've had a lot of talk about love with Ben in PI's, VO's, and even a little at the 2nd date. So far we haven't heard it with anyone else.

I completely understand why most think JP is the f1 and I'm not even sure he's not but the edit is the thing that makes me wonder if there's going to be a surprise ending. It's not like Fleiss to give us the f1 on a platter. Will there be enough in the next 2 episodes to make it seem like he won't be and if so does that mean he is or possibly to show why Ashley doesn't pick him? So many questions but only a week and a half until the answers (unless we get spoilers out of the tapings of course).

I agree with a lot of this, especially the shortened JP dates and the talk of his heartbreak. I think JP is F1 because of the post show stuff, but agree that there are some weird things happening with his edit.

Another thing that popped out to me was the most recent preview when Ashley says they are so comfortable with each other that they can sit there without talking. I know that some may think that speaks to their connection, but it was strange to me. The fact is that they’ve been on exactly 3 individual dates so far, and all seem to be shortened. There is still a lot to talk about! It reminded me of reading (don’t know where) that Brad and Chantal didn’t talk much on their LCD on the boat last season.

Like I said, I do think JP is F1. And I think they’re showing their smoking hot chemistry because they can’t hide it - the way he looks at her is like he wants to completely absorb her. In order to hide that they would have to never show them looking at each other. But his wonky edit with jealousy and heartbreak makes me buy into what Bloomers has said all along...they are showing us what they think the hurdles in this relationship will be in the real world. Both Ash and JP seem to need so much reassurance, I’m not sure any relationship can provide enough of it for both of them.

bing2262 wrote:Last season, I was in the minority because I picked Emily. I picked her inspite of RS because I saw something between her and Brad. The exchanges at FORT became contentious at times but the only time I got upset was when a poster called Emily a "w" word which ticked me off and I had to respond and promptly got cited for it. I was never intimidated by Chantal fans, I had my own opinions and they had theirs, though it was good to gloat when I was proven right.Hehehe.
This season, I think most of us are Cupcake fans and are happily posting about JP and Ashley. Posting is fun as long as you do not take it too personally and respect each other's "opinions" but sometimes it bothers me when false or unsubstantiated information is being brandished as a FACT or posters resort to mean name calling.

So excited for Monday. I have very positive vibes about a very happy ending for JP and Ash.

You are so right. Well said. I was in the same boat last season and you just need to learn to be thick skinned about it. Not everyone is going to agree. Sometime you will be in the minority and sometimes the majority. It's best to not take it personally and just enjoy the love story as you see it. I have enjoyed the love stories I have seen the last to season. One which I was in the minority and one which I was in the majority. It is what it is.

ironcat wrote:We don't know that they have been hiding any of the chemistry with Ben. Yes, they have cut out certain moments of them together, but there's no evidence that they were romantic moments, could have just been more bland kissing that wouldn't have changed anyone's mind about them. CH said the scenes cut out of HTD were fun and playful, he didn't say they were romantic or steamy. My speculation is that if they had more romantic or steamy scenes between Ash and Ben to show, they would have. They didn't.

I know Ben supporters see this strong romantic connection he has with her, but frankly, they are the only ones IMO. The poll on the ABC website for who would have the best FD has JP ahead of Ben by 51% to 34% at last count. And that's after the promo tried to make it sound like JP's date was a disaster. The public ain't buying it.

Ironcat, you are most likely correct that JP is F1. However, I continually see you using polls as a basis to defend why JP is popular. First of all, the only opinion that counts is Ashley's and yes I do think she chose JP. But secondly, these kind of polls are easy to manipulate. I have seen on other boards folks have campaigns to vote for their favorite by voting multiple (into the hundreds) of times. So the polls mean little to nothing to me. JMHO

pavalygurl wrote:

ironcat wrote:We don't know that they have been hiding any of the chemistry with Ben. Yes, they have cut out certain moments of them together, but there's no evidence that they were romantic moments, could have just been more bland kissing that wouldn't have changed anyone's mind about them. CH said the scenes cut out of HTD were fun and playful, he didn't say they were romantic or steamy. My speculation is that if they had more romantic or steamy scenes between Ash and Ben to show, they would have. They didn't.

I know Ben supporters see this strong romantic connection he has with her, but frankly, they are the only ones IMO. The poll on the ABC website for who would have the best FD has JP ahead of Ben by 51% to 34% at last count. And that's after the promo tried to make it sound like JP's date was a disaster. The public ain't buying it.

Ironcat, you are most likely correct that JP is F1. However, I continually see you using polls as a basis to defend why JP is popular. First of all, the only opinion that counts is Ashley's and yes I do think she chose JP. But secondly, these kind of polls are easy to manipulate. I have seen on other boards folks have campaigns to vote for their favorite by voting multiple (into the hundreds) of times. So the polls mean little to nothing to me. JMHO

The same people vote hundreds of times for their favorites too. Online polls aren't valid.

GrahamGal wrote:

bing2262 wrote:Last season, I was in the minority because I picked Emily. I picked her inspite of RS because I saw something between her and Brad. The exchanges at FORT became contentious at times but the only time I got upset was when a poster called Emily a "w" word which ticked me off and I had to respond and promptly got cited for it. I was never intimidated by Chantal fans, I had my own opinions and they had theirs, though it was good to gloat when I was proven right.Hehehe.
This season, I think most of us are Cupcake fans and are happily posting about JP and Ashley. Posting is fun as long as you do not take it too personally and respect each other's "opinions" but sometimes it bothers me when false or unsubstantiated information is being brandished as a FACT or posters resort to mean name calling.

So excited for Monday. I have very positive vibes about a very happy ending for JP and Ash.

You are so right. Well said. I was in the same boat last season and you just need to learn to be thick skinned about it. Not everyone is going to agree. Sometime you will be in the minority and sometimes the majority. It's best to not take it personally and just enjoy the love story as you see it. I have enjoyed the love stories I have seen the last to season. One which I was in the minority and one which I was in the majority. It is what it is.

Great post. I expect to be in the minority again next season on here, though. Ever since I've been watching, my favorite has never been the FORT favorite. But I have to say it makes things a little more interesting for me. I would hate it if mostly everyone agreed with me. That would be boring.

pavalygurl wrote:

ironcat wrote:We don't know that they have been hiding any of the chemistry with Ben. Yes, they have cut out certain moments of them together, but there's no evidence that they were romantic moments, could have just been more bland kissing that wouldn't have changed anyone's mind about them. CH said the scenes cut out of HTD were fun and playful, he didn't say they were romantic or steamy. My speculation is that if they had more romantic or steamy scenes between Ash and Ben to show, they would have. They didn't.

I know Ben supporters see this strong romantic connection he has with her, but frankly, they are the only ones IMO. The poll on the ABC website for who would have the best FD has JP ahead of Ben by 51% to 34% at last count. And that's after the promo tried to make it sound like JP's date was a disaster. The public ain't buying it.

Ironcat, you are most likely correct that JP is F1. However, I continually see you using polls as a basis to defend why JP is popular. First of all, the only opinion that counts is Ashley's and yes I do think she chose JP. But secondly, these kind of polls are easy to manipulate. I have seen on other boards folks have campaigns to vote for their favorite by voting multiple (into the hundreds) of times. So the polls mean little to nothing to me. JMHO

I think TPTB couldn't show us much more of JP and Ashley's dates as they were so obviously into each other. They were having a hard time keeping their hands and lips off each other. :giggle: That's a bit hard to edit around when that's all you've got. jmo

Regarding the shortened dates, I think it's highly possible that JP's first date was supposed to start earlier in the day, but due to Bentley leaving (wasn't it the morning of the date?), Ashley needed more time to "compose herself" and the date was delayed until evening. I mentioned in an earlier post why Bentley's leaving, coming on top of losing 2 more of her original F4 picks, hit her so hard, so I can understand her meltdown being about more than just losing Bentley, but feeling that she was a total failure as a Bachelorette on the whole. In fact, her feeling that way may account for CH's claims that they almost had to "shut down production", if Ashley really doubted she was cut out for the lead role at that point, based on everything going wrong.

I have always suspected that Ryan was originally supposed to get the HK date, but Ashley, after kicking Bentley to the curb, wanted to have alone time with JP to tell him, so they switched his date which was planned for the following week (which might have even been planned to be the overnight date, although I suspect the producers wanted Ben to have a chance to "catch up" with him and would have insisted he have that one regardless) to the shorter, dinner date that week. And as has been often said, we have no idea how late in the evening (or early morning) that date ended.

On to HTDs. What time did JP's start? Maybe, due to scheduling issues, it started in the morning, while the other dates started in the afternoon. And if his date ended just before sunset and Ben's ended just after sunset, it may have been a difference of only a couple of hours at most. And something else that nobody's mentioned on any of these dates, is how much time is actually spent with Ashley vs on long breaks with the crew setting up or finagling with the shot, or pulling the people aside to give PIs and whatnot. Some of those dates may have taken hours and hours, but more due to production "issues" than because the couple was spending extra quality time together.