Episode 7 - 7/11 - Discussion - Spoilers

albean99 wrote:

vivalameagx3 wrote:

albean99 wrote:I finally caught up on the last several pages and noticed there where a lot of comments about lack of chemistry with Ben and pecks instead of what's with JP so I actually went back and watched JP & Ashley's date in Hong Kong and forced myself to watch every kiss (can't believe I did this, good thing dh is upstairs ). I noticed something that I read about their kisses and it's true. They're still single kisses or pecks but right after a kiss Ashley turns her head to the side and kisses JP beside the mouth. It's the strangest thing. Even the end of the date you could tell she was doing it when it appeared they were longer kisses. So if that's what Ben (if f1) is supposed to be jealous about I think he'll be just fine. :Nod:

Some positives for Ben from this episode were:

- the love talk starting with Ashley saying "I love Ben" in the beginning of the show. Probably more of a casual comment but seemed to the their theme for that date. Ben talked about the "L word" and falling in love with Ashley and then Ashley said he might be falling in love with Ben. She even talked about the things she loved about Ben in her blog. Maybe a clue on the outcome?

- the bracelets. I thought it was very sweet that they wore the bracelets they got together in Chaing Mai. Obviously they mean something to them. It certainly could be a clue if they show up again and it's not a Ben date. Ashley did wear hers once more on the group fight date.

- It was a very long date so lots of time to talk and just be together. That's a real positive on this show. I know Ashley doesn't have the final choice on who goes on dates but the producers do so why did they pick Ben? Maybe some of it was to be a poke at JP but did they know then they'd be using a jealousy edit for him? I just don't know but it's possible. Whatever the reason, it gave them a real chance to fall for each other. i love u

Regarding the bolded, it must be something between them, because JP does it to Ash and she does it back to him. Obviously he knows what he's doing because apparently he has the most "magical" kisses!

Or it's her way of keeping them from being intense. I can tell you I was expecting a lot more after people are raving about their chemistry. I see there is some but it's not nearly as much as earlier on imo. There are other reasons that I can understand that people think JP is the f1 but not that. YMMV

sjcaligurl wrote:JP said he'd been in a bad mood once the dates started but he was also quiet and staying out of conversations. Childish or not, that's how he got through the week until he was able to talk to Ashley and let her know how he felt. Still not sure why he was having such a hard time taking the pictures given that he and Ashley had the best outfits, though. I would have thought that would have made him feel better but I guess not. LOL!

JBF wrote:

sjcaligurl wrote:JP said he'd been in a bad mood once the dates started but he was also quiet and staying out of conversations. Childish or not, that's how he got through the week until he was able to talk to Ashley and let her know how he felt. Still not sure why he was having such a hard time taking the pictures given that he and Ashley had the best outfits, though. I would have thought that would have made him feel better but I guess not. LOL!

That was all Fleiss editing. He was in a greeeeeaaaaat mood during the photo shoot. Both Lucas and Ames could see it. Check out the VO & PI thread, but go back a few pages to find the actual quote-by-quote rundown. Lots of voice-overs made before the group date were edited into that to Fleiss The Masses.

JBF wrote:Line by line breakdown of the wedding shoot (episode #7)

Key line from the past:
Episode #5: Jordan to Ashley, pre-RC: You know, when you came to pick up Ben for your date, like… that was the first time it stung a little bit and I know it’s gonna get harder. I mean, that’s just the nature of the beast… but I’m strong enough. I can handle it. But right now, it doesn’t feel like there’s anybody else.

Stated at the start of the date:
Jordan PI pre-date: Wedding photos. This is exactly what I was afraid of. I mean… it’s hard for me. I don’t want to see her in a wedding dress with any other guy.

Now, don’t get lost with me here… let’s just continue…

Jordan PI post-date or during in suit: So Lucas steps out in this gold thing. It looked like a dress up to his neck… and then Ames looks like the offspring of an ostrich and Elton John. (voice-over) So I’m thinking mine’s got to be the worst one in there.
Lucas waiting for Jordan to come out: C’mon Pete.
Jordan (unseen): It’s a little small.
Lucas: Yours better be bad
Ames seeing the tux: OMG
Lucas: What’s up with that, man?
Jordan: The pants are long and the jacket’s too tight if that makes you feel any better. (Lucas rolls his eyes while Ames looks at him surprised.) Sorry.
Lucas PI post-date or during post-shoot cocktail, same shirt: You know, JP has been pouting quite a bit about Ben not coming home. He wouldn’t talk. He was just cranky. He was moody. He comes out. His whole attitude changes when he gets that tuxedo on.
Lucas to the others: Uh… group dates suck.
Jordan: Well, they’re not so bad.
Lucas PI post-date: If he would have MY outfit or Ames’ outfit on today, oh my gosh, he would have just thrown a fit like… y’know… like a 15-year old, so… (voice-over) That’s irritating.
Ash arriving: Hi guys! (laughing as Ames says “hi”) You guys look good. I think you look really good!
Ash PI green miniskirt, post-shoot, pre-1 on 1 meetings: The guys looked really cute and the most important thing is that they are/were playing along with it.
Ash voice-over: I think everyone is just going to have a lot of fun with this.
Ash to Lucas posing: How romantic.
Ash PI black outfit, pre-date: My photo shoot with Lucas is a traditional Taiwanese set-up and, because he is just a traditional southern guy, I thought maybe this be best suited for him.
Ash to Lucas: Smile again.
Lucas: I’m smiling. (Ames and Jordan watch and drink, one smiling… the other not.)
Ash: You’re supposed to be happy.
Lucas: I am happy. (both laugh)
(She elbow-jerks him while others laugh. Kiss kiss kiss lines as they respond. Camera pans on Jordan watching repeatedly as Lucas and Ash kiss. Ya ya ya ya one more one more. Hey beautiful. OK change your curls.)
Jordan voice-over: It’s been a rough rough week for me.
Ash: Alright Ames.
Ames: I’m ready
Jordan voice-over & PI (probably no splicing) post-date in suit (during Ames scenes, but not exactly angry when seen… just narrating a story): Watching Constantine go on a date, having Ben not come home from a date and then to watch Ashley kiss Ames and Lucas at that photo shoot. All not good things. (seen in PI, but smiling) Bad. Bad. Bad. (back to voice-over over shots of him and Ashley posing in tux and Trista dress) And then we had our photo shoot.
Lady discussing backdrop: I want to introduce this place. It’s on the northeast coast. The most popular wedding photo location.
Ash (as camera pans to Ames and Lucas frequently): Alright. Let’s do this.
Jordan (heard only): How to you want us to…?
Ash voice-over & PI black outfit, pre-date: JP lucked out with this date. He’s sporting the traditional tux and he looks great. The pressure is on because he’s the one that’s in the most traditional outfit for us.
Smile… (photo shots taken)
Ash jerking Jordan: Be happy
Jordan (gushing): I am
Ash: Smile!
Jordan (gushing): I was smiling! That’s all I do!
Jordan voice-over & PI pre-date, in blue plaid shirt: Group dates suck. It’s uncomfortable. The high from my one on one has come down
Ash to Jordan: Does this make you nervous? (Camera pans to intensely watching Lucas and Ames) All of this wedding stuff? (Jordan and Ashley are in full eye-contact.)
Ames (completely wide-eyed) to Lucas: I don’t… I mean… this is going so well. Personally…
(Lucas is chuckling like he knew this would happen.)
Ames (still shocked): I mean, just based on listening.
Ashley to the photographer (all blushy): These are going to be the worst pictures ever. (Jordan turns suddenly, surprised and laughs. Immediate shot of Ames with surprised eyes grinning nervously.)
Jordan voice-over pre-date, but probably carried over from the time of Ben’s date : I just want some answers. I wanna move forward. (spoken as they finish their shoot, still holding hands and another shot of surprised Ames)
Jordan voice-over again pre-date… but time uncertain: I know what we have is real, but I want this date to be over with.
Lucas (smirking) to Jordan, as Ames shakes his hand: How did that feel?
Jordan voiceover dubbed in?: Awful.
(Shot of him sitting with hand over face… not certain of its “time” since he is sitting on Ames’ couch… could be same time, but would think Ames would be partially seen here.)

I’ll let somebody else do quotes from the second part of the date, if they would like. For me, the key scenes apart from the expected ones with Jordan… and the fact that our kiss came here and not during the photo shoot (when the other two weren’t looking), is Lucas’ “waking up in the morning” comment (which may be important in some way) and Ames’ “For the first time this is completely out of our hands” after the group rose goes to Jordan (followed by the defeated “game over” look of Lucas).

(Not that it matters, a few of Lucas’s later PIs during the Regem Hotel cocktail were taken before the Rose Ceremony, post-Ryan departure, with his suit on. All of Jordan’s and Ames’ are in the same outfits worn at the second part of the date.)

OK, some observations here… subject to debate and analysis. Feel free to argue.

When Jordan says later…

I feel back on Cloud 9. Got the rose at the group date. Not gonna lie. It’s a great feeling. I can’t wait for her to meet the family.

…he is wearing the same suit and shirt (worn post-shoot cocktail either during or after date) and definitely NOT upset stating the following lines…

Watching Constantine go on a date, having Ben not come home from a date and then to watch Ashley kiss Ames and Lucas on that photo shoot. All not good things. Bad. Bad. Bad. And then we had our photo shoot…

I’m fairly certain (but could be wrong) that the lines that follow come from a completely different time spliced for effect. I personally think he is about to say he felt uplifted by that experience, but the editors cut it off. Not that it matters really. We already have Ames’ comments and Lucas PI to prove that this was, without a doubt, a fact. It was very important for viewers to see his silent rage during Ben’s date as a set-up to this Cloud 9 scene… and he does have to start crying to her after the date discussing his rough week and his feelings of jealousy first.

These lines parallel, same voice-tone and wording, these from episode #2:

I came into tonight deflated and discouraged about not getting that one on one and losing the coin toss to Mickey, but now to have it excel to this level. I’m on cloud 9. (BTW, there are a couple similarities between episodes #2 and #7, including repeat words like “breakfast” and the way Jordan is shown stewing before-hand, complaining to William.)

Here’s a wild guess, take it or leave it…

The clue that both Fleiss and Chris Harrison tweeted just may be the following line from Ashley: “He’s the one that in the most traditional outfit for us.” No, her dress does not match her FRC dress, but who is to say that this dress will be the last one we see her in come August 1st? Reality Steve and Life & Style only stated that she was engaged. Yet, there were no engagement “clues” in this episode, like there was on Hong Kong beach the previous episode, and the only Ben clue is that she said she thinks she may be falling for him and sees him as a boyfriend. Constantine’s wish lantern became a canine fire hydrant. Lucas and Ryan are both gone... although we do know one returns. (Maybe clues in his scenes?... certainly not the wedding shop he passed before getting a taxi?) Ames stated after Jordan got the group rose “For the first time this is completely out of our hands.” Anything else I missed?

CarrieAlexander wrote:

Alanna wrote:

vivalameagx3 wrote:Regarding the bolded, it must be something between them, because JP does it to Ash and she does it back to him. Obviously he knows what he's doing because apparently he has the most "magical" kisses!

Wait, I don't know if this is a weird thing now but doesn't everyone love when you have a kiss and then the guy kisses your cheek/nose/forehead right afterwards? I thought it was normal! LOL. It's transferring the kiss from just sexual to something sweeter.

PS: Now I really want to kiss someone. Hee.

CarrieAlexander wrote:

Alanna wrote:

vivalameagx3 wrote:Regarding the bolded, it must be something between them, because JP does it to Ash and she does it back to him. Obviously he knows what he's doing because apparently he has the most "magical" kisses!

Wait, I don't know if this is a weird thing now but doesn't everyone love when you have a kiss and then the guy kisses your cheek/nose/forehead right afterwards? I thought it was normal! LOL. It's transferring the kiss from just sexual to something sweeter.

PS: Now I really want to kiss someone. Hee.

I do.. I get giddy even thinking about it! my bf will kiss the corner of my lip before he pulls away from a kiss OK off to go find him! :crazy dance:

CHO wrote:I also see JP's reactions to Ben's date and Ashley's kissing Lucas for the wedding photos as a bit of a red flag. I just find that kind of jealousy exhibited by mood swings, can't stick around - "storming out" and then telling Ashley all about his insecurities as unattractive, and manipulative. But we are all different and I enjoy reading how others are seeing it. Ashley has to keep JP around even if she is not falling in love with him. He may be her F1 but if she is falling for Ben - she still has to keep JP around and the way you do that is to keep him happy - thus reassuring him that all is ok by giving him the rose. (It worked). She may be giving it to him because she really does care for him and doesn't want him to be upset. We shall find out. Interesting that Ben is not that worried about her feelings for him. Isn't this a common scenario - the F2 (maybe JP) is not getting the reassurance they need - thus constant torment (remember Chantal's tears?)
But what I question is - the depth of JP's apparent love for Ashley. Pretty much immediately he was totally smitten - he complains about how little time they have spent together - has to flip a coin to get her to kiss him (impatient). Then the ep 3 date - an evening only date - she was depressed over Bentley - and she falls asleep ! By HK - she should know how he feels - he has never really told us what about her he has fallen for - does he even know? Another mostly serious date - clearing the air etc. To me he seems over anxious, insecure, feeling threatened. Is he really in love or is it the competition, possible loss of pride etc. ? It goes without saying that I am more imoressed with Ben's careful approach - and of course having been in the Bach bubble - it is important to get a reality check and see how things go on the htd. Ben is being specific about his feelings and how they are growing for Ashley. If I were Ashley, I would feel a lot more secure being told why he feels the way he does - instead of the you know how I am feeling approach.
I know it's been discussed before - but I think A is spending time with Ben - 2 long dates - for a reason. How can she believe in her love for JP after spending so little time with him ? She is a smart girl - I don't see her as being impulsive. You don't convince yourself that you are in love with one person by spending more time with the others as a comparison .....
I may be surprised by a JP ending - and if so I wish them well - but I at this stage am suspect.