Episode 7 - 7/11 - Discussion - Spoilers

Jeepers wrote:

happyntexas wrote:

sjcaligurl wrote:

Coastal wrote:

KarmaGirl wrote:This might be right - and why we don't see the passionate kisses with Ben and Ashley!

All I remember is that Ashley has stated again that the attraction is there with her and Ben, the emotional connection is there in full swing. With JP, she states that she is trying to find out what the emotional conenction is and if they have the whole package..........

Honestly, given the body language I've seen, it's going to be the FD or LCD before we may see passion from Ben. I think Ashley sees JP as being out of her league much the way Ali tried to talk herself out of Roberto by fixating on Frank who was her 'type' like Ben and Constantine are her 'physical type'. For as understanding JP has been with her and as much as she raves about his kisses, she was still questioning his sincerity. She's scared he's going to leave whereas right off the bat she felt Ben 'liked' her (funny he's the one who now has conditions on whether he could really love her unless his family does). Ashley's fear of JP leaving her would be why she didn't choose him. Whenever you meet someone and can't understand why they are single because you think they are great, what you are really saying is that "you're so great you could have anybody. why would you want me?"

The odds of thing working out no matter who she chooses are slim. However, if she has to choose something that may not work, I'd rather her go for the passion/sex. She can marry someone 'comfortable' later ... LOL!

I'll give you that she probably does choose passion. But, on the other hand with Ben. I watched the video where he talks of his family to her. He also states in the next breath, that with the way he has talked about her, he sees no reason that his family would not like her.

I also don't think what he says is unreasonable. I've heard lots of bachelorette contestants say they would have to get along with family. If you stay with someone any length of time......you marry the family too.

I like both Ben and JP......and she probably will pick JP. Which is fine. But, I try, for the sake of fairness, to at least include both possibilities. Since the two will feature prominently.....I feel like they should both be given equal consideration.

Great post. Love the idea of a neutral zone idea so both guys can be considered equally. Sure would make things easier around here

I like both as well tho I somewhat favor Ben. But I also see the difficulty being a Ben fan here as has been pointed out by some here.

CHO wrote:I also see JP's reactions to Ben's date and Ashley's kissing Lucas for the wedding photos as a bit of a red flag. I just find that kind of jealousy exhibited by mood swings, can't stick around - "storming out" and then telling Ashley all about his insecurities as unattractive, and manipulative. But we are all different and I enjoy reading how others are seeing it. Ashley has to keep JP around even if she is not falling in love with him. He may be her F1 but if she is falling for Ben - she still has to keep JP around and the way you do that is to keep him happy - thus reassuring him that all is ok by giving him the rose. (It worked). She may be giving it to him because she really does care for him and doesn't want him to be upset. We shall find out. Interesting that Ben is not that worried about her feelings for him. Isn't this a common scenario - the F2 (maybe JP) is not getting the reassurance they need - thus constant torment (remember Chantal's tears?)
But what I question is - the depth of JP's apparent love for Ashley. Pretty much immediately he was totally smitten - he complains about how little time they have spent together - has to flip a coin to get her to kiss him (impatient). Then the ep 3 date - an evening only date - she was depressed over Bentley - and she falls asleep ! By HK - she should know how he feels - he has never really told us what about her he has fallen for - does he even know? Another mostly serious date - clearing the air etc. To me he seems over anxious, insecure, feeling threatened. Is he really in love or is it the competition, possible loss of pride etc. ? It goes without saying that I am more imoressed with Ben's careful approach - and of course having been in the Bach bubble - it is important to get a reality check and see how things go on the htd. Ben is being specific about his feelings and how they are growing for Ashley. If I were Ashley, I would feel a lot more secure being told why he feels the way he does - instead of the you know how I am feeling approach.
I know it's been discussed before - but I think A is spending time with Ben - 2 long dates - for a reason. How can she believe in her love for JP after spending so little time with him ? She is a smart girl - I don't see her as being impulsive. You don't convince yourself that you are in love with one person by spending more time with the others as a comparison .....
I may be surprised by a JP ending - and if so I wish them well - but I at this stage am suspect.

Jeepers wrote:

happyntexas wrote:

sjcaligurl wrote:

Coastal wrote:

KarmaGirl wrote:This might be right - and why we don't see the passionate kisses with Ben and Ashley!

All I remember is that Ashley has stated again that the attraction is there with her and Ben, the emotional connection is there in full swing. With JP, she states that she is trying to find out what the emotional conenction is and if they have the whole package..........

Honestly, given the body language I've seen, it's going to be the FD or LCD before we may see passion from Ben. I think Ashley sees JP as being out of her league much the way Ali tried to talk herself out of Roberto by fixating on Frank who was her 'type' like Ben and Constantine are her 'physical type'. For as understanding JP has been with her and as much as she raves about his kisses, she was still questioning his sincerity. She's scared he's going to leave whereas right off the bat she felt Ben 'liked' her (funny he's the one who now has conditions on whether he could really love her unless his family does). Ashley's fear of JP leaving her would be why she didn't choose him. Whenever you meet someone and can't understand why they are single because you think they are great, what you are really saying is that "you're so great you could have anybody. why would you want me?"

The odds of thing working out no matter who she chooses are slim. However, if she has to choose something that may not work, I'd rather her go for the passion/sex. She can marry someone 'comfortable' later ... LOL!

I'll give you that she probably does choose passion. But, on the other hand with Ben. I watched the video where he talks of his family to her. He also states in the next breath, that with the way he has talked about her, he sees no reason that his family would not like her.

I also don't think what he says is unreasonable. I've heard lots of bachelorette contestants say they would have to get along with family. If you stay with someone any length of time......you marry the family too.

I like both Ben and JP......and she probably will pick JP. Which is fine. But, I try, for the sake of fairness, to at least include both possibilities. Since the two will feature prominently.....I feel like they should both be given equal consideration.

Great post. Love the idea of a neutral zone idea so both guys can be considered equally. Sure would make things easier around here

I like both as well tho I somewhat favor Ben. But I also see the difficulty being a Ben fan here as has been pointed out by some here.

CHO wrote:I also see JP's reactions to Ben's date and Ashley's kissing Lucas for the wedding photos as a bit of a red flag. I just find that kind of jealousy exhibited by mood swings, can't stick around - "storming out" and then telling Ashley all about his insecurities as unattractive, and manipulative. But we are all different and I enjoy reading how others are seeing it. Ashley has to keep JP around even if she is not falling in love with him. He may be her F1 but if she is falling for Ben - she still has to keep JP around and the way you do that is to keep him happy - thus reassuring him that all is ok by giving him the rose. (It worked). She may be giving it to him because she really does care for him and doesn't want him to be upset. We shall find out. Interesting that Ben is not that worried about her feelings for him. Isn't this a common scenario - the F2 (maybe JP) is not getting the reassurance they need - thus constant torment (remember Chantal's tears?)
But what I question is - the depth of JP's apparent love for Ashley. Pretty much immediately he was totally smitten - he complains about how little time they have spent together - has to flip a coin to get her to kiss him (impatient). Then the ep 3 date - an evening only date - she was depressed over Bentley - and she falls asleep ! By HK - she should know how he feels - he has never really told us what about her he has fallen for - does he even know? Another mostly serious date - clearing the air etc. To me he seems over anxious, insecure, feeling threatened. Is he really in love or is it the competition, possible loss of pride etc. ? It goes without saying that I am more imoressed with Ben's careful approach - and of course having been in the Bach bubble - it is important to get a reality check and see how things go on the htd. Ben is being specific about his feelings and how they are growing for Ashley. If I were Ashley, I would feel a lot more secure being told why he feels the way he does - instead of the you know how I am feeling approach.
I know it's been discussed before - but I think A is spending time with Ben - 2 long dates - for a reason. How can she believe in her love for JP after spending so little time with him ? She is a smart girl - I don't see her as being impulsive. You don't convince yourself that you are in love with one person by spending more time with the others as a comparison .....
I may be surprised by a JP ending - and if so I wish them well - but I at this stage am suspect.

Jeepers wrote:

CHO wrote:I also see JP's reactions to Ben's date and Ashley's kissing Lucas for the wedding photos as a bit of a red flag. I just find that kind of jealousy exhibited by mood swings, can't stick around - "storming out" and then telling Ashley all about his insecurities as unattractive, and manipulative. But we are all different and I enjoy reading how others are seeing it. Ashley has to keep JP around even if she is not falling in love with him. He may be her F1 but if she is falling for Ben - she still has to keep JP around and the way you do that is to keep him happy - thus reassuring him that all is ok by giving him the rose. (It worked). She may be giving it to him because she really does care for him and doesn't want him to be upset. We shall find out. Interesting that Ben is not that worried about her feelings for him. Isn't this a common scenario - the F2 (maybe JP) is not getting the reassurance they need - thus constant torment (remember Chantal's tears?)
But what I question is - the depth of JP's apparent love for Ashley. Pretty much immediately he was totally smitten - he complains about how little time they have spent together - has to flip a coin to get her to kiss him (impatient). Then the ep 3 date - an evening only date - she was depressed over Bentley - and she falls asleep ! By HK - she should know how he feels - he has never really told us what about her he has fallen for - does he even know? Another mostly serious date - clearing the air etc. To me he seems over anxious, insecure, feeling threatened. Is he really in love or is it the competition, possible loss of pride etc. ? It goes without saying that I am more imoressed with Ben's careful approach - and of course having been in the Bach bubble - it is important to get a reality check and see how things go on the htd. Ben is being specific about his feelings and how they are growing for Ashley. If I were Ashley, I would feel a lot more secure being told why he feels the way he does - instead of the you know how I am feeling approach.
I know it's been discussed before - but I think A is spending time with Ben - 2 long dates - for a reason. How can she believe in her love for JP after spending so little time with him ? She is a smart girl - I don't see her as being impulsive. You don't convince yourself that you are in love with one person by spending more time with the others as a comparison .....
I may be surprised by a JP ending - and if so I wish them well - but I at this stage am suspect.

CHO what a GREAT post. Well thought out and great examples that compare these 2. I agree, am suspect as well, for many of the same reasons

Alanna wrote:

ironcat wrote:

anders wrote:

sjcaligurl wrote:
All he said was that when JP was upset, he got quiet. So what? Guys get into bad moods for any number of reasons on any number of days. I'm sure everyone's quirks came out while they bunked together. It didn't sound as chronic and irritating as Ryan's perpetual perkiness. JP was upset about Ashley going out with his friends. I think he had just cause and if the guys were upset about him not wanting to talk about it, they sound like babies too! LOL! Lucas and JP were mutually threatened by one another it seems. Look at Lucas during Ames' photo shoot. His facial expressions looked worse than JP's. Both guys should have taken a walk around the back of the studio instead of punishing themselves by watching ...

it's not what he said - it's that he's knows this is how JP reacts when the gets angry/jealous/whatever. How would Lucas know this if he hadn't seen it before??? What would JP have to be so mad about prior to this episode that he would have behaved that way??? Again - it's just telling the story, I'm not saying JP is a bad person.

It reminds me a lot of when Corrie did her comedy routine around Vienna - we knew from Vienna's edit she wasn't the nicest girl in the house, but we got more infomation from Corrie that we had no idea about.

So can we fairly make the assumption that JP was the only guy in the house who ever exhibited any anger or jealousy the whole time these guys spent with each other? I don't doubt that over the course of several weeks together in close quarters, it was not all singing Kumbaya all the time, and many of the guys may have also been in bad moods over something on occasion (or more than one occasion). Since it wasn't relevant to Lucas' interview, we wouldn't have heard about it though. Nothing that Lucas said about JP's moods indicated that it was extreme or a habitual problem, and we don't even know if it bothered anybody else besides him (and it's pretty clear from other things he's said that he's not JP's biggest fan in the first place, and they apprear to have very little in common as well, particularly on an emotional level).

Right. First of all, Lucas obviously doesn't like JP. There can only be one alpha in the pack and it wasn't the chill winemaker, Constant Sleep (thanks Steve!), Space Mountain (thanks Northern!), nor was it Lucas and he's pissed.

Second of all, let me get this straight. JP reacts to being upset/angry by talking with his (potential) partner and being open and vulnerable with her. He doesn't make her feel insecure, which we all know he could accomplish in five seconds by merely hinting that he's leaving her/the show, and watching her cry, beg, and work herself up. Then they :nuzzle: , kiss, and makeup. OTOH, he doesn't run telling random dudes about his emotions or punch walls. And this is all a problem because, why exactly?

sweetpea wrote:I've just realized there haven't been any smooching in the hot tub scenes. Gotta give the girl some credit for that I guess. Still she's spent so much time weeping and fretting, it's really quite exhausting watching her. I am not sure she really was cut out to do this show, given all her insecurities. Hope she is happy now, though. If they make it, it will be worth it I'm sure.

northernviewer wrote:

Jeepers wrote:

happyntexas wrote:

sjcaligurl wrote:

Coastal wrote:

KarmaGirl wrote:This might be right - and why we don't see the passionate kisses with Ben and Ashley!

All I remember is that Ashley has stated again that the attraction is there with her and Ben, the emotional connection is there in full swing. With JP, she states that she is trying to find out what the emotional conenction is and if they have the whole package..........

Honestly, given the body language I've seen, it's going to be the FD or LCD before we may see passion from Ben. I think Ashley sees JP as being out of her league much the way Ali tried to talk herself out of Roberto by fixating on Frank who was her 'type' like Ben and Constantine are her 'physical type'. For as understanding JP has been with her and as much as she raves about his kisses, she was still questioning his sincerity. She's scared he's going to leave whereas right off the bat she felt Ben 'liked' her (funny he's the one who now has conditions on whether he could really love her unless his family does). Ashley's fear of JP leaving her would be why she didn't choose him. Whenever you meet someone and can't understand why they are single because you think they are great, what you are really saying is that "you're so great you could have anybody. why would you want me?"

The odds of thing working out no matter who she chooses are slim. However, if she has to choose something that may not work, I'd rather her go for the passion/sex. She can marry someone 'comfortable' later ... LOL!

I'll give you that she probably does choose passion. But, on the other hand with Ben. I watched the video where he talks of his family to her. He also states in the next breath, that with the way he has talked about her, he sees no reason that his family would not like her.

I also don't think what he says is unreasonable. I've heard lots of bachelorette contestants say they would have to get along with family. If you stay with someone any length of time......you marry the family too.

I like both Ben and JP......and she probably will pick JP. Which is fine. But, I try, for the sake of fairness, to at least include both possibilities. Since the two will feature prominently.....I feel like they should both be given equal consideration.

Great post. Love the idea of a neutral zone idea so both guys can be considered equally. Sure would make things easier around here

I like both as well tho I somewhat favor Ben. But I also see the difficulty being a Ben fan here as has been pointed out by some here.

Why? Ben isn't the one getting attacked on the board, JP is. or is it cause JP is considered the F1 by the majority? don't let that stop you from saying what you have to say, but if you're expecting to convert some of us or that we're going to agree with everything you say, I'm not seeing that happening unless somebody has some concrete proof that Ben is F1.... like if anybody sees a bottle of Ben's wine in her fridge or a lock of his hair on her pillow ... and we have a "winegate" or a "hairgate" going on But character assination (not directed at you) isn't going to get any good dialogue going ....just sayin'....

northernviewer wrote:Why? Ben isn't the one getting attacked on the board, JP is. or is it cause JP is considered the F1 by the majority? don't let that stop you from saying what you have to say, but if you're expecting to convert some of us or that we're going to agree with everything you say, I'm not seeing that happening unless somebody has some concrete proof that Ben is F1.... like if anybody sees a bottle of Ben's wine in her fridge or a lock of his hair on her pillow ... and we have a "winegate" or a "hairgate" going on But character assination (not directed at you) isn't going to get any good dialogue going ....just sayin'....

Jeepers wrote:

sweetpea wrote:I've just realized there haven't been any smooching in the hot tub scenes. Gotta give the girl some credit for that I guess. Still she's spent so much time weeping and fretting, it's really quite exhausting watching her. I am not sure she really was cut out to do this show, given all her insecurities. Hope she is happy now, though. If they make it, it will be worth it I'm sure.

Does smoochin in a pool count??