Episode 7 - 7/11 - Discussion - Spoilers

I also see JP's reactions to Ben's date and Ashley's kissing Lucas for the wedding photos as a bit of a red flag. I just find that kind of jealousy exhibited by mood swings, can't stick around - "storming out" and then telling Ashley all about his insecurities as unattractive, and manipulative. But we are all different and I enjoy reading how others are seeing it. Ashley has to keep JP around even if she is not falling in love with him. He may be her F1 but if she is falling for Ben - she still has to keep JP around and the way you do that is to keep him happy - thus reassuring him that all is ok by giving him the rose. (It worked). She may be giving it to him because she really does care for him and doesn't want him to be upset. We shall find out. Interesting that Ben is not that worried about her feelings for him. Isn't this a common scenario - the F2 (maybe JP) is not getting the reassurance they need - thus constant torment (remember Chantal's tears?)
But what I question is - the depth of JP's apparent love for Ashley. Pretty much immediately he was totally smitten - he complains about how little time they have spent together - has to flip a coin to get her to kiss him (impatient). Then the ep 3 date - an evening only date - she was depressed over Bentley - and she falls asleep ! By HK - she should know how he feels - he has never really told us what about her he has fallen for - does he even know? Another mostly serious date - clearing the air etc. To me he seems over anxious, insecure, feeling threatened. Is he really in love or is it the competition, possible loss of pride etc. ? It goes without saying that I am more imoressed with Ben's careful approach - and of course having been in the Bach bubble - it is important to get a reality check and see how things go on the htd. Ben is being specific about his feelings and how they are growing for Ashley. If I were Ashley, I would feel a lot more secure being told why he feels the way he does - instead of the you know how I am feeling approach.
I know it's been discussed before - but I think A is spending time with Ben - 2 long dates - for a reason. How can she believe in her love for JP after spending so little time with him ? She is a smart girl - I don't see her as being impulsive. You don't convince yourself that you are in love with one person by spending more time with the others as a comparison .....
I may be surprised by a JP ending - and if so I wish them well - but I at this stage am suspect.

emusha wrote:I think the bremily robotic/restrained romantic behavior threw a lot of people off ...none of the lead people this season are that robotic

I agree. I still think that Brad fell in love with the idea of Emily, and spent all his time with her trying to be who he thought she expected. And Emily was very concerned with how she'd appear on TV/being an example to her daughter, all leading to many very awkward and stiff looking interactions. IMHO, Brad was much more himself and comfortable with Chantal, and would have a had a much better chance to make things work with her.

Aside from the huge difference of "man who has 25 women to choose from vs. man competing with 24 other guys for one woman", that is just another reason that it doesn't work to compare this season's edit with last season's.

anders wrote:

Nativenewyorker wrote:

sjcaligurl wrote:They have been making fun of JP since the beginning and they knew that he liked her. They'd all been playing it cool and macho while he'd been wearing his heart on his sleeve. Bottom line is that they are going home one by one and he ... IS NOT! LOL!

Lucas is full of it. He was not happy about JP getting the Tux or about the kissing of the other guys. But he chose to complain about wearing a dress and feeling stupid. Why not complain about not wanting a group date where you kiss other guys which was the real issue. He would have worn a tutu had it just been them alone.

I had to come back here to say something about what Lucas had to say about JP. As far as I am concerned, Lucas is the last person to be judging the behavior of anyone else! Have we forgotten his little hissy fit when Ashley told the guys about Bentley? He showed more than a little temper at that time. What was that comment he made about her - don't waste my f------ time! He was really pissed off. So spare me his phony comments. And his anger was supposedly over a woman who he has admitted now that he wasn't really feeling anything for, certainly nothing like what JP feels for Ashley. At least JP has honest feelings and cares.

Lucas needs to take a good look in the mirror before he goes off on JP.

you're talking apples and chairs - Lucas gave us insight to JPs behaviour that the audience wasn't aware of until this episode. Has nothing to do with how Lucas reacted to the Bent stuff. Frankly, since Lucas was a F5, I never gave his edit any weight, it never mattered in the long run. I'm glad we got something from Lucas about JP because without it one would think his behaviour that morning was out of the norm, we now know it was typical JP behaviour when he's pissed/jealous/whatever.

All he said was that when JP was upset, he got quiet. So what? Guys get into bad moods for any number of reasons on any number of days. I'm sure everyone's quirks came out while they bunked together. It didn't sound as chronic and irritating as Ryan's perpetual perkiness. JP was upset about Ashley going out with his friends. I think he had just cause and if the guys were upset about him not wanting to talk about it, they sound like babies too! LOL! Lucas and JP were mutually threatened by one another it seems. Look at Lucas during Ames' photo shoot. His facial expressions looked worse than JP's. Both guys should have taken a walk around the back of the studio instead of punishing themselves by watching ...

CHO wrote:I also see JP's reactions to Ben's date and Ashley's kissing Lucas for the wedding photos as a bit of a red flag. I just find that kind of jealousy exhibited by mood swings, can't stick around - "storming out" and then telling Ashley all about his insecurities as unattractive, and manipulative. But we are all different and I enjoy reading how others are seeing it. Ashley has to keep JP around even if she is not falling in love with him. He may be her F1 but if she is falling for Ben - she still has to keep JP around and the way you do that is to keep him happy - thus reassuring him that all is ok by giving him the rose. (It worked). She may be giving it to him because she really does care for him and doesn't want him to be upset. We shall find out. Interesting that Ben is not that worried about her feelings for him. Isn't this a common scenario - the F2 (maybe JP) is not getting the reassurance they need - thus constant torment (remember Chantal's tears?)
But what I question is - the depth of JP's apparent love for Ashley. Pretty much immediately he was totally smitten - he complains about how little time they have spent together - has to flip a coin to get her to kiss him (impatient). Then the ep 3 date - an evening only date - she was depressed over Bentley - and she falls asleep ! By HK - she should know how he feels - he has never really told us what about her he has fallen for - does he even know? Another mostly serious date - clearing the air etc. To me he seems over anxious, insecure, feeling threatened. Is he really in love or is it the competition, possible loss of pride etc. ? It goes without saying that I am more imoressed with Ben's careful approach - and of course having been in the Bach bubble - it is important to get a reality check and see how things go on the htd. Ben is being specific about his feelings and how they are growing for Ashley. If I were Ashley, I would feel a lot more secure being told why he feels the way he does - instead of the you know how I am feeling approach.
I know it's been discussed before - but I think A is spending time with Ben - 2 long dates - for a reason. How can she believe in her love for JP after spending so little time with him ? She is a smart girl - I don't see her as being impulsive. You don't convince yourself that you are in love with one person by spending more time with the others as a comparison .....
I may be surprised by a JP ending - and if so I wish them well - but I at this stage am suspect.

CHO we all see things differently that's what makes this message board a great place to be for all of us.

Ashley has to keep JP around even if she is not falling in love with him. He may be her F1 but if she is falling for Ben - she still has to keep JP around and the way you do that is to keep him happy - thus reassuring him that all is ok by giving him the rose.

What you say above could also be applied to Ben.

I'm hoping that TPTB give us more SC's and previews after the HTD's on Monday.

I remember during Andy and Tessa's season we got just a glimpse of Tessa's dress in a preview and wham-O we knew that he'd chosen her.

sjcaligurl wrote:
All he said was that when JP was upset, he got quiet. So what? Guys get into bad moods for any number of reasons on any number of days. I'm sure everyone's quirks came out while they bunked together. It didn't sound as chronic and irritating as Ryan's perpetual perkiness. JP was upset about Ashley going out with his friends. I think he had just cause and if the guys were upset about him not wanting to talk about it, they sound like babies too! LOL! Lucas and JP were mutually threatened by one another it seems. Look at Lucas during Ames' photo shoot. His facial expressions looked worse than JP's. Both guys should have taken a walk around the back of the studio instead of punishing themselves by watching ...

it's not what he said - it's that he's knows this is how JP reacts when the gets angry/jealous/whatever. How would Lucas know this if he hadn't seen it before??? What would JP have to be so mad about prior to this episode that he would have behaved that way??? Again - it's just telling the story, I'm not saying JP is a bad person.

It reminds me a lot of when Corrie did her comedy routine around Vienna - we knew from Vienna's edit she wasn't the nicest girl in the house, but we got more infomation from Corrie that we had no idea about.

CHO wrote: He may be her F1 but if she is falling for Ben - she still has to keep JP around and the way you do that is to keep him happy - thus reassuring him that all is ok by giving him the rose. (It worked). She may be giving it to him because she really does care for him and doesn't want him to be upset. We shall find out. Interesting that Ben is not that worried about her feelings for him.

Interesting perspective on the show! It is totally different from how I'm seeing it, but thought provoking nonetheless.

As for what I quoted above, Ashley hasn't seemed like the type to try to keep a guy happy and around who doesn't want to be there at all (remember Mickey and Ben C?). I really think that if she was bothered by JP's emotions/attitude, she would have reacted to him completely differently.

But what was telling for me was Ashley's blog after this episode. She said this was the time when she started her journal so that her F1 could know her true feelings throughout the process. I think it is telling that she defended JP in her blog, and then told us about the journal. And like you said, we haven't seen Ben worried about her feelings at all. I think she'd be throwing out one huge diversion if the F1 she was referring to isn't JP.

happyntexas wrote:Well that's one of the reasons when I watched, that I couldn't buy it. I just didn't get her actions/reactions/whatever they were called.

LOL. even knowing the ending I kept thinking.....maybe, just maybe he'll pick the other girl.....very warped viewing.

hahaha Reid had the perfect word to describe edited emily on the show - catatonic... :awesome:

sunny - I think the edit also helped make emily emotionless and stiff in addition to her own restraint -- we have to remember cultures are different especially when it comes to dating rituals and Emily and Brad are more on the 'traditional' southern restraint - chasing and protecting the sweet lady direction (lucas reminds me of brad this season) - I don't think any of the players are from such cultural upbringings this season: californian ben, NYorker JP...and we know how ashley is

sjcaligurl wrote:

anders wrote:

Nativenewyorker wrote:

sjcaligurl wrote:They have been making fun of JP since the beginning and they knew that he liked her. They'd all been playing it cool and macho while he'd been wearing his heart on his sleeve. Bottom line is that they are going home one by one and he ... IS NOT! LOL!

Lucas is full of it. He was not happy about JP getting the Tux or about the kissing of the other guys. But he chose to complain about wearing a dress and feeling stupid. Why not complain about not wanting a group date where you kiss other guys which was the real issue. He would have worn a tutu had it just been them alone.

I had to come back here to say something about what Lucas had to say about JP. As far as I am concerned, Lucas is the last person to be judging the behavior of anyone else! Have we forgotten his little hissy fit when Ashley told the guys about Bentley? He showed more than a little temper at that time. What was that comment he made about her - don't waste my f------ time! He was really pissed off. So spare me his phony comments. And his anger was supposedly over a woman who he has admitted now that he wasn't really feeling anything for, certainly nothing like what JP feels for Ashley. At least JP has honest feelings and cares.

Lucas needs to take a good look in the mirror before he goes off on JP.

you're talking apples and chairs - Lucas gave us insight to JPs behaviour that the audience wasn't aware of until this episode. Has nothing to do with how Lucas reacted to the Bent stuff. Frankly, since Lucas was a F5, I never gave his edit any weight, it never mattered in the long run. I'm glad we got something from Lucas about JP because without it one would think his behaviour that morning was out of the norm, we now know it was typical JP behaviour when he's pissed/jealous/whatever.

All he said was that when JP was upset, he got quiet. So what? Guys get into bad moods for any number of reasons on any number of days. I'm sure everyone's quirks came out while they bunked together. It didn't sound as chronic and irritating as Ryan's perpetual perkiness. JP was upset about Ashley going out with his friends. I think he had just cause and if the guys were upset about him not wanting to talk about it, they sound like babies too! LOL! Lucas and JP were mutually threatened by one another it seems. Look at Lucas during Ames' photo shoot. His facial expressions looked worse than JP's. Both guys should have taken a walk around the back of the studio instead of punishing themselves by watching ...

The thing that I always forget when watching all of the men's actions is that they are kept together in a hotel suite with no tv, phones, computers and only 'let out' for the dates. Many of the dates this year involve no physical activities so the dates are not much of a stress outlet. It would be interesting to hear what a psychologist or psychiatrist would say about what that does to people's reaction to stress, love, and other people. I know for me, crabby Mary would appear.

You can watch Big Brother live feeds for that - although these folks aren't let outside their environment for nearly 3 months (if you get to the finals)

anders wrote:

sjcaligurl wrote:
All he said was that when JP was upset, he got quiet. So what? Guys get into bad moods for any number of reasons on any number of days. I'm sure everyone's quirks came out while they bunked together. It didn't sound as chronic and irritating as Ryan's perpetual perkiness. JP was upset about Ashley going out with his friends. I think he had just cause and if the guys were upset about him not wanting to talk about it, they sound like babies too! LOL! Lucas and JP were mutually threatened by one another it seems. Look at Lucas during Ames' photo shoot. His facial expressions looked worse than JP's. Both guys should have taken a walk around the back of the studio instead of punishing themselves by watching ...

it's not what he said - it's that he's knows this is how JP reacts when the gets angry/jealous/whatever. How would Lucas know this if he hadn't seen it before??? What would JP have to be so mad about prior to this episode that he would have behaved that way??? Again - it's just telling the story, I'm not saying JP is a bad person.

It reminds me a lot of when Corrie did her comedy routine around Vienna - we knew from Vienna's edit she wasn't the nicest girl in the house, but we got more infomation from Corrie that we had no idea about.

So can we fairly make the assumption that JP was the only guy in the house who ever exhibited any anger or jealousy the whole time these guys spent with each other? I don't doubt that over the course of several weeks together in close quarters, it was not all singing Kumbaya all the time, and many of the guys may have also been in bad moods over something on occasion (or more than one occasion). Since it wasn't relevant to Lucas' interview, we wouldn't have heard about it though. Nothing that Lucas said about JP's moods indicated that it was extreme or a habitual problem, and we don't even know if it bothered anybody else besides him (and it's pretty clear from other things he's said that he's not JP's biggest fan in the first place, and they apprear to have very little in common as well, particularly on an emotional level).

ironcat wrote:

anders wrote:

sjcaligurl wrote:
All he said was that when JP was upset, he got quiet. So what? Guys get into bad moods for any number of reasons on any number of days. I'm sure everyone's quirks came out while they bunked together. It didn't sound as chronic and irritating as Ryan's perpetual perkiness. JP was upset about Ashley going out with his friends. I think he had just cause and if the guys were upset about him not wanting to talk about it, they sound like babies too! LOL! Lucas and JP were mutually threatened by one another it seems. Look at Lucas during Ames' photo shoot. His facial expressions looked worse than JP's. Both guys should have taken a walk around the back of the studio instead of punishing themselves by watching ...

it's not what he said - it's that he's knows this is how JP reacts when the gets angry/jealous/whatever. How would Lucas know this if he hadn't seen it before??? What would JP have to be so mad about prior to this episode that he would have behaved that way??? Again - it's just telling the story, I'm not saying JP is a bad person.

It reminds me a lot of when Corrie did her comedy routine around Vienna - we knew from Vienna's edit she wasn't the nicest girl in the house, but we got more infomation from Corrie that we had no idea about.

So can we fairly make the assumption that JP was the only guy in the house who ever exhibited any anger or jealousy the whole time these guys spent with each other? I don't doubt that over the course of several weeks together in close quarters, it was not all singing Kumbaya all the time, and many of the guys may have also been in bad moods over something on occasion (or more than one occasion). Since it wasn't relevant to Lucas' interview, we wouldn't have heard about it though. Nothing that Lucas said about JP's moods indicated that it was extreme or a habitual problem, and we don't even know if it bothered anybody else besides him (and it's pretty clear from other things he's said that he's not JP's biggest fan in the first place, and they apprear to have very little in common as well, particularly on an emotional level).

Right. First of all, Lucas obviously doesn't like JP. There can only be one alpha in the pack and it wasn't the chill winemaker, Constant Sleep (thanks Steve!), Space Mountain (thanks Northern!), nor was it Lucas and he's pissed.

Second of all, let me get this straight. JP reacts to being upset/angry by talking with his (potential) partner and being open and vulnerable with her. He doesn't make her feel insecure, which we all know he could accomplish in five seconds by merely hinting that he's leaving her/the show, and watching her cry, beg, and work herself up. Then they :nuzzle: , kiss, and makeup. OTOH, he doesn't run telling random dudes about his emotions or punch walls. And this is all a problem because, why exactly?

Seems to me that since Ben admits to being an emotional zombie or emotionally unavailable for the past 4 years, he has some coping issues too. Will he check out on Ashley when he gets depressed or stressed or if the relationship hits some hard time? JP withdraws when he gets upset but he talked about his feelings with the right person and didn't go off on Ben or the guys (which wasn't the case with some of the guys who were jealous of Ryan's rose getting). Everyone gets mad/upset. As impatient as JP is, I can't see him stewing for too long if he's living with Ashley. He's going to want her to know all about it right then and there.

Who knows what far away place Ben will go in his head.