Episode 7 - 7/11 - Discussion - Spoilers

Bloomers wrote:I think JP is F1, but I an not a fan of jealousy no matter what shade or degree it is. I just don't think it is hot or a desirable trait in any person. It doesn't matter to me whether I am a female or not.

Very well said. I totally agree

Thank you

I agree. Also, after Bentley humiliated her calling her "Ugly Duckling" and such, it was delightful to me to see someone genuinely care for her and to be jealous that someone he cared for so much was out kissing on another guy all night. (This is the way it appeared).

Please don't let me ever be with someone who wouldn't be jealous of that!

Anyway, it has given us something to talk about - kudos to TPTB!

KarmaGirl wrote:I agree. Also, after Bentley humiliated her calling her "Ugly Duckling" and such, it was delightful to me to see someone genuinely care for her and to be jealous that someone he cared for so much was out kissing on another guy all night. (This is the way it appeared).

Please don't let me ever be with someone who wouldn't be jealous of that!

Anyway, it has given us something to talk about - kudos to TPTB!

Beeleever wrote:

etherealfire wrote:Love being here, MNM. So, anyway, what is the word on JP's edit from the general public or does anybody know? Does it look like the tide is turning against him in a big way? I don't have a sense of that but I wonder what everyone else thinks.

I went to lunch today with a group of 12 women who have watched the show faithfully for the last 5-6 years. Seven quit watching this season because of all the drama with the "B" word and Ashley's incessant whining and crying about it (their words). About half of them are unspoiled, the other half know the F2 are Ben and JP.

They watched the episode Monday night because they wanted to see Emily's interview...mission accomplished MF & Co. We got to talking about JP's edit and I was surprised that with the exception of one, they all thought it was super hot. They absolutely loved that JP showed a little emotion and said they like their guys to have a little fire. The consensus was it made him even more appealing in their eyes. Other than Ryan's over the top cheesy excitability, JP is the only one they see that is showing he is not bored to death and even remotely interested in Ashley. The ones that had not seen JP and Ashley's Hong Kong date were surprised at his ability to communicate his feelings to her so well at the group date cocktail party. All seven that quit are back watching the show and on the JP tram. So I guess from my little MN group, the edit JP got pushed him further ahead and made him seem more "real". Good job TPTB! BTW...We are planning a cupcake party for August 1st!
:cc4: :cc3: :cc1: :27: :Cutecupcake: :cc5: :cc6: :cc7:

I could only find one co-worker who watched this week and she was turned off by JP who she previously liked. She thought he acted like a jerk. I have to agree and have trouble finding jealousy "hot" especially with someone I might have dated when single. Again I don't care about it other than as edited and still find it strange. I have a feeling this will come back throughout the rest of the show.

KarmaGirl wrote:I agree. Also, after Bentley humiliated her calling her "Ugly Duckling" and such, it was delightful to me to see someone genuinely care for her and to be jealous that someone he cared for so much was out kissing on another guy all night. (This is the way it appeared).

Please don't let me ever be with someone who wouldn't be jealous of that!

Anyway, it has given us something to talk about - kudos to TPTB!

It is one thing to enjoy the way that JP truly seems to care for Ashley. That can be taken out, examined, and even cherished as something special which we are doing on the board. However, it is an entirely different thing to ascribe what is consider a negative character trait - and jealousy is consider a negative character trait -to a character as a positive trait because we are entralled physically with him and with the relationship he has with Ashley. In our enthusiasm for what we are seeing between Jp and Ashley, we are not only failing to see the possible repercussions of jealousy, we are changing the trait itself from a negative into a positive - as if psychologically we can do such a thing.

Bloomers wrote:

KarmaGirl wrote:I agree. Also, after Bentley humiliated her calling her "Ugly Duckling" and such, it was delightful to me to see someone genuinely care for her and to be jealous that someone he cared for so much was out kissing on another guy all night. (This is the way it appeared).

Please don't let me ever be with someone who wouldn't be jealous of that!

Anyway, it has given us something to talk about - kudos to TPTB!

It is one thing to enjoy the way that JP truly seems to care for Ashley. That can be taken out, examined, and even cherished as something special which we are doing on the board. However, it is an entirely different thing to ascribe what is consider a negative character trait - and jealousy is consider a negative character trait -to a character as a positive trait because we are entralled physically with him and with the relationship he has with Ashley. In our enthusiasm for what we are seeing between Jp and Ashley, we are not only failing to see the possible repercussions of jealousy, we are changing the trait itself from a negative into a positive - as if psychologically we can do such a thing.

I agree BLOOMERS. In any shape or form jealously is not a positive nor attractive trait. It is not cute or charming but is am indication of being insecure in a relationship. One either trusts... Or doesn't. Is secure... Or is not. Watching the jealous edit that JP is getting is very unusual to see. The trait has been building for several episodes as seen in interactions with the guys and in his comments. He may care ALOT for her but he also needs a better understanding of how the show works.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion about whether JP's actions were a turn off, a turn on, excusable or inexcusable. It appears from perusing other boards and websites, and looking at polls on the subject that the sentiment is running over 2 to 1 that his actions were perfectly understandable. Again, you may not agree, but those seem to be the facts for now as to the overall consensus of viewers.

Regarding Lucas' comments and feelings on the subject, he said himself he is a very traditional southern guy. I imagine it was somewhat humiliating to watch Monday's episode, in which he saw himself forced to wear a dress, while the "emotional" New Yorker got the tux and then got rewarded by Ashley with the rose. Further, he then got eliminated for all his trouble, and it finally dawned on him that the guy he didn't consider "manly" enough actually "kicked his ass" as far as capturing Ashley's interest when he couldn't. I'm sure he took some grief from his friends for it as well. Not surprising that his comments about JP would be somewhat bitter.

I don't want to blow JP's reaction out of proportion either way. It is what it is. In watching it (and going back and seeing different parts of that episode more than once) I just saw a normal guy. Most of it was him thinking out loud and being presented in voice overs.

I'll say it again that I found it rather comical because I know he is saying things that many other people, including former cast members, have felt if, indeed, they have really fallen for the lead.

No matter what you sign up for, once you in love with someone, you aren't going to feel good and happy with that person still dating and kissing other people. I think he was totally correct in saying/feeling the things he said and felt.

I do think he's being selfish in a way because he honestly believes, for whatever reason, that he is the only guy in the house who loves Ashley and who is right for Ashley. Heck, he said that in Episode 4 when they were asking him about Ryan. I think he probably has been trying to intimidate the other guys by making them feel bad if they don't really like her/are in it just for the competition by letting them know that he really cares. I'd be pissed too if there were a bunch of 'gamers' in the house when I really liked someone.

He wasn't punching walls and breaking lamps and when the guys wanted to discuss the date in front of him, he left. That was a good thing. He shouldn't have to listen. It's not normal to deal with that and, yes, it is a mind F to have to deal with that when he is feeling the way he is feeling. He is internalizing it and taking it personally because he is personally invested and thinks he found someone he wants to spend his life with.

I think Ben is as cute and sweet as he can be. But, really, what kind of geek would tell a woman: "I'm teetering on the edge of being in love with you but don't want to say it until you meet my family and they give me their opinion of you" or "I'll be in love with you once my mother and sister like you. " Why not just keep it to yourself if you aren't ready. Was he trying to buy himself an HTD? I also think he may be in a bit of denial. He really thought that Lucas was going to get the rose on that 3on1? He should really be as afraid of JP as JP is afraid of him but he's talking himself into the opposite. JP is in touch with his feelings/emotions and, admittedly, Ben has been suppressing his for years.

Obviously JP and Ashley's Hong Kong date was a turning point. She confessed about Bentley. He opened up about his ex. The made out at dinner, on the tram, on the roof ... I mean you really couldn't have fit a sheet of paper between them. As far as we know, she hasn't been that close to anyone else. Ben is still holding her hand like they are at the 5th grade dance and kissing her like he's doing it through jail bars.

I think Ashley was surprised by JP because she'd seen him as her rock and protector and when he just spilled out how terrible his week was dealing with her going out with the other guys and kissing Lucas in front of her, I think she realized that he really was in love with her. I think she still has to keep her mind/heart open but is basically decided. I think JP had it right when he said that the elimination of Lucas w/o the cocktail party was just a continuation of her elimination of Ryan halfway through his date. I think he sees it as a sign that she is as ready to be done with the process as he is. While I don't get why he would tell Ames that he was surprised by the elimination, you could tell he was very happy as he saw Lucas as some kind of contender for some reason.

Anyhow, despite whatever polished edit people think the F1 is supposed to have, I am glad that finally, they are showing what really goes on it lots of minds in that situation. I think he was saying out loud what a lot of guys have felt.

All I can say is if we are eliminating any form of jealousy from all human interaction, then life would be very different. I think it would be lovely if everyone could be perfect and never have a smidgen of doubt or insecurity. However, being human and imperfect, we are all going to say and do things that may not reflect well on us and that we may well regret. I certainly have done any number of things and acted in ways in the past that I wish had not happened. I just choose to accept that as part of my life's journey, try to learn what I can from it and move on.

I did not try to make JP's jealousy something positive and glorious. Rather I tried to understand what was going on inside him and the situation which he was in that brought on so much tension, anxiety and insecurity. This idea that one should never feel a negative emotion, never have any insecurity and doubt, simply is not realistic.

It is easy to judge from afar, as if one can be sure that they would never feel or act that way. You don't know until you walk in that person's shoes. Holding someone else to one's own personal code of behavior, is also quite unfair. People don't all behave the same or deal with situations alike. Deciding what is appropriate or right or good and what is bad or wrong or inappropriate, is imposing oneself on another person.

JP was being human. I am not about to jump all over him for that. If some feel that he should have just smiled his way through it and pretended that everything was just fine and dandy, let me just say that I do not subscribe to that belief. JP was honest and showed his feelings. His vulnerability and fear was revealed to a nationwide audience. I would rather see that any day of the week than see some robotic display of so-called acceptable behavior defined by others.

Nativenewyorker wrote:All I can say is if we are eliminating any form of jealousy from all human interaction, then life would be very different. I think it would be lovely if everyone could be perfect and never have a smidgen of doubt or insecurity. However, being human and imperfect, we are all going to say and do things that may not reflect well on us and that we may well regret. I certainly have done any number of things and acted in ways in the past that I wish had not happened. I just choose to accept that as part of my life's journey, try to learn what I can from it and move on.

I did not try to make JP's jealousy something positive and glorious. Rather I tried to understand what was going on inside him and the situation which he was in that brought on so much tension, anxiety and insecurity. This idea that one should never feel a negative emotion, never have any insecurity and doubt, simply is not realistic.

It is easy to judge from afar, as if one can be sure that they would never feel or act that way. You don't know until you walk in that person's shoes. Holding someone else to one's own personal code of behavior, is also quite unfair. People don't all behave the same or deal with situations alike. Deciding what is appropriate or right or good and what is bad or wrong or inappropriate, is imposing oneself on another person.

JP was being human. I am not about to jump all over him for that. If some feel that he should have just smiled his way through it and pretended that everything was just fine and dandy, let me just say that I do not subscribe to that belief. JP was honest and showed his feelings. His vulnerability and fear was revealed to a nationwide audience. I would rather see that any day of the week than see some robotic display of so-called acceptable behavior defined by others.

Beautifully said! ICAM!

I have a great idea. Let's go back to arguing about boat railings, the proper way to hold hands while on a date and whether the sun does indeed set in the west.

8)

sjcaligurl wrote:I don't want to blow JP's reaction out of proportion either way. It is what it is. In watching it (and going back and seeing different parts of that episode more than once) I just saw a normal guy. Most of it was him thinking out loud and being presented in voice overs.

I'll say it again that I found it rather comical because I know he is saying things that many other people, including former cast members, have felt if, indeed, they have really fallen for the lead.

No matter what you sign up for, once you in love with someone, you aren't going to feel good and happy with that person still dating and kissing other people. I think he was totally correct in saying/feeling the things he said and felt.

I do think he's being selfish in a way because he honestly believes, for whatever reason, that he is the only guy in the house who loves Ashley and who is right for Ashley. Heck, he said that in Episode 4 when they were asking him about Ryan. I think he probably has been trying to intimidate the other guys by making them feel bad if they don't really like her/are in it just for the competition by letting them know that he really cares. I'd be pissed too if there were a bunch of 'gamers' in the house when I really liked someone.

He wasn't punching walls and breaking lamps and when the guys wanted to discuss the date in front of him, he left. That was a good thing. He shouldn't have to listen. It's not normal to deal with that and, yes, it is a mind F to have to deal with that when he is feeling the way he is feeling. He is internalizing it and taking it personally because he is personally invested and thinks he found someone he wants to spend his life with.

I think Ben is as cute and sweet as he can be. But, really, what kind of geek would tell a woman: "I'm teetering on the edge of being in love with you but don't want to say it until you meet my family and they give me their opinion of you" or "I'll be in love with you once my mother and sister like you. " Why not just keep it to yourself if you aren't ready. Was he trying to buy himself an HTD? I also think he may be in a bit of denial. He really thought that Lucas was going to get the rose on that 3on1? He should really be as afraid of JP as JP is afraid of him but he's talking himself into the opposite. JP is in touch with his feelings/emotions and, admittedly, Ben has been suppressing his for years.

Obviously JP and Ashley's Hong Kong date was a turning point. She confessed about Bentley. He opened up about his ex. The made out at dinner, on the tram, on the roof ... I mean you really couldn't have fit a sheet of paper between them. As far as we know, she hasn't been that close to anyone else. Ben is still holding her hand like they are at the 5th grade dance and kissing her like he's doing it through jail bars.

I think Ashley was surprised by JP because she'd seen him as her rock and protector and when he just spilled out how terrible his week was dealing with her going out with the other guys and kissing Lucas in front of her, I think she realized that he really was in love with her. I think she still has to keep her mind/heart open but is basically decided. I think JP had it right when he said that the elimination of Lucas w/o the cocktail party was just a continuation of her elimination of Ryan halfway through his date. I think he sees it as a sign that she is as ready to be done with the process as he is. While I don't get why he would tell Ames that he was surprised by the elimination, you could tell he was very happy as he saw Lucas as some kind of contender for some reason.

Anyhow, despite whatever polished edit people think the F1 is supposed to have, I am glad that finally, they are showing what really goes on it lots of minds in that situation. I think he was saying out loud what a lot of guys have felt.

I would say that JP is simply competitive. He wants Ashley for himself, period. It hasn't got a whole lot to do what he thinks about the other guys. He just wants her, he is going after her, and he wants the rest of them to get the heck out of his way.

The problem some of us are having is that we have NEVER seen this edited in an F1 before.

What do these traits all of a sudden mean? Do they suddenly mean Fleiss and Co have decided to finally get real and show us what these guys truly feel after 7 seasons, and JP is the one that gets to display it - warts and all? Fleiss?
Or, are we seeing a mini-psychological study of JP in action? He himself told us he was impatient and tended to get frustrated and wanted his way, was it? You can add highly competitive and jealous to that as well. If this is so, to what end or purpose if this?
Or, is all of this just for our merriment and enjoyment? Am I supposed to take away from this that JP is the typical cut-throat New Yorker out for #1? :shock: :shock: