DWTS Season 19 - Discussion - *Spoilers*

thirteen wrote:

albean99 wrote:Well there's nobody there who will entice me to watch. It's yet another season that Derek doesn't get the older star or someone with very little dance ability. It must be in his contract. I'd like to see how good he'd be if he was really challenged.

I get exasperated hearing: "Derek hasn't been challenged in this show". Really? I mean just to name you a few:
1. Amy Purdy: She doesn't have legs. I don't think how much challenge a choreographer and teacher can have.
2. Jennifer Grey: Who was 50 and had a year old surgery in her neck and from week 2 suffered injury and injury until the finale when she ruptured her disc.
3. Maria Menounos: Who Derek said she couldn't even walk in a straight line and had no rhythm whatsoever. Suffered 2 major injuries in her feet and she couldn't even walk or climb the stairs since week 4.
_{And before Shawn all his partners were older than him by more than a few years.}

That guy has had challenges and he had overcame them with flying colors. Why not admit that he is a effing great choreographer and teacher? He works with his partners strengths and hide their weaknesses fantastically. Really, this guy is amazing and deserves every win he has gotten since his youth (being the first american to win the Blackpool competition) to winning 5 mirror ball trophies.

And before people start saying: "Oh, you are just a Derek fan". You know what, yes I am but I am also fan of Val, Maks, Mark, and Sharna. So you can take my opinion as bias.

You know who I want to see challenged? Valentin.

I used to be a Derek hater, but I compare Derek's celebrity partners to Tony's or even Tristan.

Tony:
2 Stacy Kiebler 3rd
3 Sara Evans 6th
4 Leeza Gibbons 9th
5 Jane Seymour 6th
6 Marissa Jaret Winokur 4th
7 Susan Lucci 6th
8 Melissa Rycroft 3rd
9 Kathy Ireland 14th
10 Kate Gosselin 8th
11 Audrina Patridge 7th
12 Wendy Williams 10th
13 Chynna Phillips 9th
14 Martina Navratilova 12th
15 Melissa Rycroft 1st
16 Wynonna Judd 11th
17 Leah Remini 5th
18 NeNe Leakes 7th
19 Betsey Johnson TBA

Melissa was a last minute substitute, but she and Stacie were to only two with dancing talent. The others were much less talented.

Tristan:
13 Nancy Grace 5th
14 Gladys Knight 8th
15 Pamela Anderson 13th
16 Dorothy Hamill 12th
17 Valerie Harper 10th

Derek:
5 Jennie Garth 4th 25.7
6 Shannon Elizabeth 6th 24.5
7 Brooke Burke 1st 27.1
8 Lil' Kim 5th 25.8
9 Joanna Krupa 4th 25.5
10 Nicole Scherzinger 1st 27.5
11 Jennifer Grey 1st 27.2
13 Ricki Lake 3rd 26.7
14 Maria Menounos 4th 26.8
15 Shawn Johnson 2nd 27.9
16 Kellie Pickler 1st 27.4
17 Amber Riley 1st 27.8
18 Amy Purdy 2nd 27.9
19 Bethany Mota TBA TBA

So of these, Jennifer, while injured also had a very extensive dance history, Ricki was not expected to do as well, Amber while a bigger girl had dance experience and Amy without legs was still an olympic athlete.

Derek is the best choreographer on the show, by far, but he has also not had the challenges with ability or personality that Tony or Tristan have.

Maks gets bonus points for not smacking Kristie Alley, IMO, so I put him in his own catagory. Of course by that same mention, Tony had Kate Gosselin. So they both should get bonus points. Then Tony had NeNe, Tony might be a dancing saint.

I think Maks and Tony could pair with a taller dancer, so they get stuck that way sometimes and also Tony and Tristan were able to handle an older partner with less conditioning with patience. I am not sure how Derek would handle a less physically fit baseline partner. I think it is a valid question.

stuckinsc wrote:

thirteen wrote:

albean99 wrote:Well there's nobody there who will entice me to watch. It's yet another season that Derek doesn't get the older star or someone with very little dance ability. It must be in his contract. I'd like to see how good he'd be if he was really challenged.

I get exasperated hearing: "Derek hasn't been challenged in this show". Really? I mean just to name you a few:
1. Amy Purdy: She doesn't have legs. I don't think how much challenge a choreographer and teacher can have.
2. Jennifer Grey: Who was 50 and had a year old surgery in her neck and from week 2 suffered injury and injury until the finale when she ruptured her disc.
3. Maria Menounos: Who Derek said she couldn't even walk in a straight line and had no rhythm whatsoever. Suffered 2 major injuries in her feet and she couldn't even walk or climb the stairs since week 4.
_{And before Shawn all his partners were older than him by more than a few years.}

That guy has had challenges and he had overcame them with flying colors. Why not admit that he is a effing great choreographer and teacher? He works with his partners strengths and hide their weaknesses fantastically. Really, this guy is amazing and deserves every win he has gotten since his youth (being the first american to win the Blackpool competition) to winning 5 mirror ball trophies.

And before people start saying: "Oh, you are just a Derek fan". You know what, yes I am but I am also fan of Val, Maks, Mark, and Sharna. So you can take my opinion as bias.

You know who I want to see challenged? Valentin.

I used to be a Derek hater, but I compare Derek's celebrity partners to Tony's or even Tristan.

Tony:
2 Stacy Kiebler 3rd
3 Sara Evans 6th
4 Leeza Gibbons 9th
5 Jane Seymour 6th
6 Marissa Jaret Winokur 4th
7 Susan Lucci 6th
8 Melissa Rycroft 3rd
9 Kathy Ireland 14th
10 Kate Gosselin 8th
11 Audrina Patridge 7th
12 Wendy Williams 10th
13 Chynna Phillips 9th
14 Martina Navratilova 12th
15 Melissa Rycroft 1st
16 Wynonna Judd 11th
17 Leah Remini 5th
18 NeNe Leakes 7th
19 Betsey Johnson TBA

Melissa was a last minute substitute, but she and Stacie were to only two with dancing talent.  The others were much less talented.

Tristan:
13 Nancy Grace 5th
14 Gladys Knight 8th
15 Pamela Anderson 13th
16 Dorothy Hamill 12th
17 Valerie Harper 10th

Derek:
5 Jennie Garth 4th 25.7
6 Shannon Elizabeth 6th 24.5
7 Brooke Burke 1st 27.1
8 Lil' Kim 5th 25.8
9 Joanna Krupa 4th 25.5
10 Nicole Scherzinger 1st 27.5
11 Jennifer Grey 1st 27.2
13 Ricki Lake 3rd 26.7
14 Maria Menounos 4th 26.8
15 Shawn Johnson 2nd 27.9
16 Kellie Pickler 1st 27.4
17 Amber Riley 1st 27.8
18 Amy Purdy 2nd 27.9
19 Bethany Mota TBA TBA

So of these, Jennifer, while injured also had a very extensive dance history, Ricki was not expected to do as well, Amber while a bigger girl had dance experience and Amy without legs was still an olympic athlete.

Derek is the best choreographer on the show, by far, but he has also not had the challenges with ability or personality that Tony or Tristan have.

Maks gets bonus points for not smacking Kristie Alley, IMO, so I put him in his own catagory.  Of course by that same mention, Tony had Kate Gosselin.  So they both should get bonus points.  Then Tony had NeNe, Tony might be a dancing saint.

I think Maks and Tony could pair with a taller dancer, so they get stuck that way sometimes and also Tony and Tristan were able to handle an older partner with less conditioning with patience.  I am not sure how Derek would handle a less physically fit baseline partner.  I think it is a valid question.

True enough (particularly when you look at poor Tristan's list). The one comment I might add concerns Amy and Derek: During the "switch up" when Mark had Amy, we learned about how Derek had had to adjust so much of the weight shifting and balance with her and to rethink the dancing techniques. Mark is a great dancer too but I remember he was surprised and Amy initially felt unsafe with him so I think, to give him credit, Derek had a significant challenge in adapting so that Amy could shine (which she went on to do). I'm not sure if all the dancing pros would have been able to do this as well and it probably played in to who they put Amy with. Derek's choreography certainly facilitated this too.

Looking forward to Janel, Alfonso, & Sadie (just because she's with Mark). At least this season we have a few contenders!!

stuckinsc wrote:

Derek is the best choreographer on the show, by far, but he has also not had the challenges with ability or personality that Tony or Tristan have.

Maks gets bonus points for not smacking Kristie Alley, IMO, so I put him in his own catagory.  Of course by that same mention, Tony had Kate Gosselin.  So they both should get bonus points.  Then Tony had NeNe, Tony might be a dancing saint.

I think Maks and Tony could pair with a taller dancer, so they get stuck that way sometimes and also Tony and Tristan were able to handle an older partner with less conditioning with patience.  I am not sure how Derek would handle a less physically fit baseline partner.  I think it is a valid question.

Relalou wrote:True enough (particularly when you look at poor Tristan's list).  The one comment I might add concerns Amy and Derek:  During the "switch up" when Mark had Amy, we learned about how Derek had had to adjust so much of the weight shifting and balance with her and to rethink the dancing techniques.  Mark is a great dancer too but I remember he was surprised and Amy initially felt unsafe with him so I think, to give him credit, Derek had a significant challenge in adapting so that Amy could shine (which she went on to do).  I'm not sure if all the dancing pros would have been able to do this as well and it probably played in to who they put Amy with.  Derek's choreography certainly facilitated this too.

I do think Derek is great, I truly grew to appreciate him with Kelly, she softened some of his smugness in my opinion.  Having a partner with no legs is a huge issue and I respected his ability to do that.  I guess what actually made me a little less impressed that is was mostly Derek and gave Amy a lot more credit was the switch week.  With only one week to get used to Mark and his methods Amy was fantastic, so that week, I started to give Amy equal credit to Derek.  Watching NeNe basically not dance with Derek too, made me realize while Derek might be a great dancer and the best choreographer, I am not sure with a less able partner if he would do as well.  It was only one week, but in my opinion he didn't really push to get anything all that great out of NeNe, instead he to me kind of phoned it in with NeNe (pun intended due to JH saying that about Maks).

I don’t considered extensive dance experience classes in college (that when she join DWTS she hadn't taking a dance lesson in 20 years) and one routine in Dirty Dancing.
Amber’s only dance experience were those moves she pulled in their freestyle. You can even see in Glee that see didn’t dance because se couldn’t (Her words and the words of Glee’s choreographer).
Even if Amy is an Olympian how can you possibly compare her to a person that has both legs? Can you imagine how hard it is to not have your legs?

And as to what Derek would do without physically fit partner are we forgetting what I mention above? Almost all his partners had troubles physically from week 4 onward:
Jennifer: Almost all her body. You can watch the clips.
Amber: Knees with fluid (it’s effing painful, I know) and overweight.
Maria: 2 broken feet.
Ricki: Her ribs and overweight.
Etc.

Well if you compare Derek with Tony and Tristan (group B) then yes you can see the difference (btw I think Audrina was talented as well) but why don’t we compare them to the other group (A group) meaning, Valentin, Maksim, and Mark? You will also see the difference between the A group and the group B with other pros and not only Derek.

Valentin:
13 Elisabetta Canalis
14 Sherri Shepard
15 Kelly Monaco
16 Zendeya
17 Elizabeth Berkley Lauren
18 Danica McKellar
19 Janel Parrish ?

Mark:
5 Sabrina Bryan
6 Kristi Yamaguchi
7 Kim Kardashian
8 Shawn Johnson
9 Melissa Joan Hart
10 Shannen Doherty
11 Bristol Palin
12 Chelsea Kane
13 Kristin Cavallari
14 Katherine Jenkins
15 Again Bristol
16 Alexandra Raisman
17 Christina Milian
18 Candace Cameron Bure
19 Sadie Robertson ?

Maksim:
2 Tia Carrere
3 Willa Ford
4 Laila Ali
5 Melanie Brown
7 Misty May-Treanor
8 Denise Richards
9 Debi Mazar
10 Erin Andrews
11 Brandy
12 Kirstie Alley
13 Hope Solo
14 Melissa Gilbert
15 Kirstie again
18 Meryl Davis

Derek:
5 Jennie Garth
6 Shannon Elizabeth
7 Brooke Burke
8 Lil’ Kim
9 Joanna Krupa
10 Nicole Scherzinger
11 Jennifer Grey
12 Ricki Lake
14 Maria Menounos
15 Shawn Johnson
16 Kellie Pickler
17 Amber Riley
18 Amy Purdy
19 Bethany Mota ?


Now you can see how similar the group A is with the exception of Val who only has had one partner with physical problems (Elisabetta) and all of the others (with the exception of maybe Sherri) were considered real contenders in the hopes for the MBT. Why not call him out the way almost all people call Derek out?
I consider that Val has truly not been challenged the way Derek or I think all other pros have.

And as to how well Derek did with Nene I’m just gonna say that he got the highest score yet for her.

thirteen wrote:I don’t considered extensive dance experience classes in college (that when she join DWTS she hadn't taking a dance lesson in 20 years) and one routine in Dirty Dancing.
Amber’s only dance experience were those moves she pulled in their freestyle. You can even see in Glee that see didn’t dance because se couldn’t (Her words and the words of Glee’s choreographer).
Even if Amy is an Olympian how can you possibly compare her to a person that has both legs? Can you imagine how hard it is to not have your legs?

And as to what Derek would do without physically fit partner are we forgetting what I mention above? Almost all his partners had troubles physically from week 4 onward:
Jennifer: Almost all her body. You can watch the clips.
Amber: Knees with fluid (it’s effing painful, I know) and overweight.
Maria: 2 broken feet.
Ricki: Her ribs and overweight.
Etc.

Well if you compare Derek with Tony and Tristan (group B) then yes you can see the difference (btw I think Audrina was talented as well) but why don’t we compare them to the other group (A group) meaning, Valentin, Maksim, and Mark? You will also see the difference between the A group and the group B with other pros and not only Derek.

Valentin:
13 Elisabetta Canalis
14 Sherri Shepard
15 Kelly Monaco
16 Zendeya
17 Elizabeth Berkley Lauren
18 Danica McKellar
19 Janel Parrish ?

Mark:
5 Sabrina Bryan
6 Kristi Yamaguchi
7 Kim Kardashian
8 Shawn Johnson
9 Melissa Joan Hart
10 Shannen Doherty
11 Bristol Palin
12 Chelsea Kane
13 Kristin Cavallari
14 Katherine Jenkins
15 Again Bristol
16 Alexandra Raisman
17 Christina Milian
18 Candace Cameron Bure
19 Sadie Robertson ?

Maksim:
2 Tia Carrere
3 Willa Ford
4 Laila Ali
5 Melanie Brown
7 Misty May-Treanor
8 Denise Richards
9 Debi Mazar
10 Erin Andrews
11 Brandy
12 Kirstie Alley
13 Hope Solo
14 Melissa Gilbert
15 Kirstie again
18 Meryl Davis

Derek:
5 Jennie Garth
6 Shannon Elizabeth
7 Brooke Burke
8 Lil’ Kim
9 Joanna Krupa
10 Nicole Scherzinger
11 Jennifer Grey
12 Ricki Lake
14 Maria Menounos
15 Shawn Johnson
16 Kellie Pickler
17 Amber Riley
18 Amy Purdy
19 Bethany Mota ?


Now you can see how similar the group A is with the exception of Val who only has had one partner with physical problems (Elisabetta) and all of the others (with the exception of maybe Sherri) were considered real contenders in the hopes for the MBT. Why not call him out the way almost all people call Derek out?
I consider that Val has truly not been challenged the way Derek or I think all other pros have.

And as to how well Derek did with Nene I’m just gonna say that he got the highest score yet for her.

I think dance training teaches you how to be taught and move, so yup, that counts to me.

Of the "A" players, I thought Maxs often gets the taller and more difficult of the personalities. Did Kirstie weigh about the same as Amber without the advantage of youth and with like 50 times as much attitude? I will also say that Maks is often his own worst enemy, so he has problems doing as the judges want. I actually think Val does a great job with being appropriate with his younger partners, such as Zendaya. He also is a bit of one to get the taller celebrities as well.

Derek is really good, I am not knocking him. I just thought Amy was really good and her performance with Mark made me realize that it was a lot her too, not just Derek and I think that is completely fair to say. Also Amy is a fantastically fit athlete, it helps, it really does.

Everyone has injuries every season. Meryl had broken bones in her feet most of last season and simply didn't talk about it.

If for one season we see Derek get the older less physically fit competitor, I think the talk would change, but he doesn't so we haven't had that happen. Amber had training, they all dance at least a little on Glee, don't they? I really don't know, as I refuse to watch the show.

Again, I am not saying Derek isn't fantastic, he is, and he is the best choreographer on the show, hands down.

I am not a Mark fan at all, I actually cringe when someone I like gets stuck with Mark because I think he does a terrible job of dancing to the ability of his partner.

If you saw Derek get one Betsy Johnson, Kirstie Alley or even Sherri Shepherd, then I think a lot of the criticism would die down. If he has it in his contract to not have to deal with that, then good for him for knowing his value and not having to put up with the crap.

^They all dance on Glee, plenty. I watched the first few seasons of the season and Amber was out there dancing pretty much every episode with the rest of them.

I'd love for Derek to get stuck with someone like Kate Gosselin, Kristie Alley, or Diana Nyad from last season.

umngirl wrote:^They all dance on Glee, plenty. I watched the first few seasons of the season and Amber was out there dancing pretty much every episode with the rest of them.

I'd love for Derek to get stuck with someone like Kate Gosselin, Kristie Alley, or Diana Nyad from last season.

Have you seen that she was always in the back? I think there is an interview prior to the finale when they asked her about dancing on glee and she said that she didn't know how to dance as much as her co stars and for that reason they always put her at the back or do tricks with the camera so they can masked that. Later on in that interview the choreographer pretty much said the same thing and also said that he was impressed in everything Amber was doing on DWTS.

IMO if Derek was given someone like any of those three you (umngirl) mentioned he would "phone it in" or just walk.  He is their golden boy and they are not going to give him anyone like that ~ JMO.  I also thought that Amy did better with Mark than she did with Derek because she actually danced with him where with Derek she did more sitting down or being carried around than she did dancing.  Sure Derek did some creative choreography to keep her from dancing and then there was the fogging of the floor so you couldn't even see her feet and you had no idea if they were even on the floor or if Derek was just carrying her.  Again JMO I'm not a Derek or Julianne fan, I think they both think they are better than anyone else out there.  

^She may have been in the back, but she still had to dance. I could youtube several routines where you can clearly see her dancing just fine. The fact is she has had dance training which helps when learning routines. Derek has never had a total clunker who was a complete lost cause.

Yeah but Derek doesn't get to choose his partners does he? So why blame him for that?

As to being "stuck" with a Sherri Shepherd? I think she did an okay job. She had some rhythm, charisma, sassiness, and fanbase. That's a good combo imo the only thing that was missing was a choreography that would suit her better and more technique.
I think that Derek had some combo of Kirsty Alley and Sherri in Ricki Lake. So yes, he has had challenges just people want to over look them because somebody has had it worse. It's like saying you can be sad about getting a D when someone had an F.

Of course Amy has something to do with that, she is amazing! I just was stating that she wasn't a ringer and was and is one of the hardest partners ever in terms of physical body and choreography.

And I go back to my point why not compare Derek's toughest partnerships with Val's or Mark's? Because I think that there is a true comparison than between Derek and Tristan or Val and Tristan? A with A and B with B.

I think that people will never stop talking bad about Derek. Why? Because he has won more times than any other pro not only in the US version but in the world.
I just want people to see Derek as a talented young man than to see him as a Mirror Ball stealer. He deserved every single one of those wins and if he wins again I'm 100% sure he will deserved it as well and not just because his sister is there. He have proven 5 times that he doesn't need his sister in the show to win.

SLA44 wrote:IMO if Derek was given someone like any of those three you (umngirl) mentioned he would "phone it in" or just walk.  He is their golden boy and they are not going to give him anyone like that ~ JMO.  I also thought that Amy did better with Mark than she did with Derek because she actually danced with him where with Derek she did more sitting down or being carried around than she did dancing.  Sure Derek did some creative choreography to keep her from dancing and then there was the fogging of the floor so you couldn't even see her feet and you had no idea if they were even on the floor or if Derek was just carrying her.  Again JMO I'm not a Derek or Julianne fan, I think they both think they are better than anyone else out there.  

What has give you that impression of Derek? I have always seen him as a proper man who doesn't say every five seconds that he has won more than anyone else and he always is happy for the partnership that wins. And if you think about it the other person (meaning Tom or Brooke or anyone else) is always bringing that fact up. Derek has never said: "I'm the champion of champions" actually when they bring that up he answer quickly or not at all.
As for Julianne, yeah I can see where you are coming from.

P.S. Derek is not at fault for being DWTS "golden boy". He doesn't make the decision of who he wants to be paired with so why fault him? This is coming from a Derek/Mark and Maks/Val fan! (Yes, it can be done)