Re: Nick Viall - Bachelorette 10 - Discussion - Thread #7

[Ash2214]

I think many people use the Sean and Lindsay conversation as an example because it's a good comparison of how one F2 handled it versus the other. With tears in his eyes Sean said to lindsay, "I know I love you and that's what's making this so hard." He absolutely didn't necessarily mean he was in love with her, but regardless, I'm sure that would be confusing to hear, but Lindsay cared for Sean and respected him and Catherine enough to let it go, unlike the F2 guy this season.

The highlighted difference speaks volumes to what Andi said and how she said it. Not going to look up the exact quote, someone else can if they are so inclined, but I believe it was something along the lines of...I never loved you. I made sure to never say that....accompanied by the b*tch face. And Sean never slept with Lindsay. Big difference. That made things a lot more complicated for Nick than they ever were for Lindsay. Plus, I think tptb pretty much left her alone post show...maybe having a general for a father had something to do with that...and they seemed to continue manipulating Nick. Of course, that unfortunate video may have had something to do with that. Hopefully that will be a lesson for future contestants...vent all you want, just make sure you are in a private location!

If you take her whole quote when she said that, along with the other words she used on the ATFR, Andi made sure to mention that she cared for Nick and meant everything she said on the show, but was honest when she said she never loved him. In my opinion, and it may be just for me, but I'd rather the lead tell me they never loved me because otherwise I'd be clinging on for hope. I don't know what Sean meant by that. I wasn't in his head but he certainly shouldn't have used the word love while breaking up with his F2 girl. That would be incredibly confusing I would guess.

While sex makes things more complicated and I view it the same way as Nick does, that doesn't mean sex is the end all, be all in a relationship. Catherine and Sean are a great example of that. You don't need to have sex to love someone. You can be in love with someone without being physical. In my eyes anyway, Sean was certainly into Lindsay it appeared pretty close down to the end, similarly to how Andi was with Nick. It might have just been production, what have you, but it's clear both Lindsay and Nick were in love with Sean and Andi. One F2 let it go and the other F2 didn't until months later where he attempted to win the lead back.

[luvlady345]

So Sean/Catherine don't want a normal life, or Ashley/ JP?  They all have a PR agents an everyone knows that Trista/Ryan have one....  I am willing to bet Juan P and Nikki have one also if they didn't they wouldn't have been on Couple's Therapy.....  I know that you might not like Andi/Josh but some of the couples or couple you do like have done the same thing in hiring a PR agent......

You must not have read or seen the ratings for Des season Andi's season was right on par with Des's I actually looked the ratings up and was surprised....

Yes I saw the ratings of Andi's season and it was the lowest of all.  Facts are facts.....

Des's season started with 5.8 ended with 8.7 rating
Andi's season started with 5.8 ended with 8.2 rating in fact Andi's premiere the final total was 7.1 the reason why I googled this was because I was interested in how low it was, but really not that much lower, not 3 million....

[Ash2214]

I think many people use the Sean and Lindsay conversation as an example because it's a good comparison of how one F2 handled it versus the other. With tears in his eyes Sean said to lindsay, "I know I love you and that's what's making this so hard." He absolutely didn't necessarily mean he was in love with her, but regardless, I'm sure that would be confusing to hear, but Lindsay cared for Sean and respected him and Catherine enough to let it go, unlike the F2 guy this season.

Sean was very comforting to Lindsay not like Andi who was haughty, cold and dismissive to someone she had sexual intercourse  in the fantasy suite.  You cannot compare her nasty behavior with other leads.  Prior to that she brought attention to herself by making fun of someone's accent and revealing conversations that only happened in the Fantasy Suite.  She is the nastiest lead if you ask around.  The only difference is that she's female and there was a doofus, henpecked guy who saved her from total embarassment.  The PR firm they hired should be paid a bunch of money just to make her image palatable to casual bach fans.

I think you entirely missed my point. I'm sure all of the other leads and their doofus all enjoy their agents and PR firms that help get them gigs.

[charriotoffire]

I think many people use the Sean and Lindsay conversation as an example because it's a good comparison of how one F2 handled it versus the other. With tears in his eyes Sean said to lindsay, "I know I love you and that's what's making this so hard." He absolutely didn't necessarily mean he was in love with her, but regardless, I'm sure that would be confusing to hear, but Lindsay cared for Sean and respected him and Catherine enough to let it go, unlike the F2 guy this season.

Sean was very comforting to Lindsay not like Andi who was haughty, cold and dismissive to someone she had sexual intercourse  in the fantasy suite.  You cannot compare her nasty behavior with other leads.  Prior to that she brought attention to herself by making fun of someone's accent and revealing conversations that only happened in the Fantasy Suite.  She is the nastiest lead if you ask around.  The only difference is that she's female and there was a doofus, henpecked guy who saved her from total embarassment.  The PR firm they hired should be paid a bunch of money just to make her image palatable to casual bach fans.

I think you entirely missed my point. I'm sure all of the other leads and their doofus all enjoy their agents and PR firms that help get them gigs.

I was responding to the first part of your post.  You were comparing the F2's (Lindsay and Nick) reaction.  Sean's I LOVE YOu was a way to placate a very hurt and 'heartbroken and blindsided F2.  Andi was not familiar with any kind of etiquette for blindsiding someone.  Everything  was still about her.

But hey if they want to make a career out of their disastrous Bachelor stint, well hell good luck to them.  I would rather not see her kind in any type of entertainment medium.  She was not nice, not kind, bratty, no values, fake and has no self control. I dont know why she needs to be around to famewhore some more.  The PR company should be sure her stonecold face is out of my tv for good if it knows what its doing.

[stuckinsc]

Nick's sister got married today and there are lots of pics being posted. His mom looks incredible for a woman who had so many children. His little sister Bella looks really cute, too.

Otherwise, Nick seems to be hanging out in Chicago and working. He is going to see Sam Smith and hasn't announced his date.

Any other new things to chat about?

Oh yeah, some wannabe took a pick with him and complained he wasn't fun and asked Chris B to meet her instead. Apparently, Nick has some standards.

I think he is enjoying the Chicago nightlife and he is now putting his arms around girls in pics. I think he has let it go. Andi is safe, Nick won't be trying to contact her anymore. I don't think Andi was worried, but yup that is all over now.

[Guest]

Sean was very comforting to Lindsay not like Andi who was haughty, cold and dismissive to someone she had sexual intercourse  in the fantasy suite.  You cannot compare her nasty behavior with other leads.  Prior to that she brought attention to herself by making fun of someone's accent and revealing conversations that only happened in the Fantasy Suite.  She is the nastiest lead if you ask around.  The only difference is that she's female and there was a doofus, henpecked guy who saved her from total embarassment.  The PR firm they hired should be paid a bunch of money just to make her image palatable to casual bach fans.

I think you entirely missed my point. I'm sure all of the other leads and their doofus all enjoy their agents and PR firms that help get them gigs.

I was responding to the first part of your post.  You were comparing the F2's (Lindsay and Nick) reaction.  Sean's I LOVE YOu was a way to placate a very hurt and 'heartbroken and blindsided F2.  Andi was not familiar with any kind of etiquette for blindsiding someone.  Everything  was still about her.

But hey if they want to make a career out of their disastrous Bachelor stint, well hell good luck to them.  I would rather not see her kind in any type of entertainment medium.  She was not nice, not kind, bratty, no values, fake and has no self control. I dont know why she needs to be around to famewhore some more.  The PR company should be sure her stonecold face is out of my tv for good if it knows what its doing.

You have disliked Andi all along from the posts I've read and are certainly entitled to voice your opinion. We will agree to disagree. I have watched most all of the bachelor/bachelorette seasons and Andi is definitely one of my favorites. Many of the things you find negative in her, I find to be positive. She is strong & assertive, smart and genuine. I liked her feistiness. As far as leading the guys on, I still feel she was no different than most any other lead. People called her selfish and referred to her as Meandi, but she was the lead, and therefore it is more or less about her.

Could she have shown more compassion with Nick? Absolutely. I wish she had simply told him in the DR that although she cherished her relationship with him, she simply felt stronger for Josh. Maybe that would have been enough closure, but I don't think so because she did basically say those things at ATFR, prior to his FS revelation, and it didn't seem to go over well. He was confident most of the season, and for good reason when it came to the majority of the guys, but he really underestimated her connection with Josh.  He didn't see it. Apparently not even watching the season back, which I find interesting because it was so obvious to so many of us, including unspoiled fans. Nick saw and heard what he wanted to hear and analyzed it and interpreted it to mean that he was the only guy for her, and therefore he simply could not believe that she could truly be happy with anyone else. Throw in all the things that occurred after taping such as the plane video, deleted scene, and trying to contact her multiple times, and she was going to be a little guarded with him. That is where things differed in my opinion from some F2's in other seasons. The dynamics of Nick's personality made it more complicated.

That is all I am ever going to say on this subject again, as it is a dead issue now.  I agree with stuckinsc that they have all moved on and seem to be happy. Congratulations to Nick's sister on her marriage today. The Viall family definitely deserves to have some happiness right now.

[quietpal]

This whole conversation makes me  because it talks about something Nick did or said over a month ago.
Btw, I like the pic of him and his little sister. I'm sure she was a great date.

[docnash14]

So Sean/Catherine don't want a normal life, or Ashley/ JP?  They all have a PR agents an everyone knows that Trista/Ryan have one....  I am willing to bet Juan P and Nikki have one also if they didn't they wouldn't have been on Couple's Therapy.....  I know that you might not like Andi/Josh but some of the couples or couple you do like have done the same thing in hiring a PR agent......

You must not have read or seen the ratings for Des season Andi's season was right on par with Des's I actually looked the ratings up and was surprised....

Yes I saw the ratings of Andi's season and it was the lowest of all.  Facts are facts.....

Below are some of the facts.  If you look at the overall ratings in the 18-49 demographic you are correct that they are lower than Des'.  However, if you look at the overall number of viewers, Andi's had a little more on the average:

http://tvseriesfinale.com/tv-show/the-bachelorette-season-10-ratings-32630/

Final season averages: 1.7 rating in the 18-49 demographic with an average of 6.76 million total viewers.

Last year comparison: The ninth season of The Bachelorette averaged a 2.0 rating in the 18-49 demographic with an average of 6.75 million total viewers.

[Lucas15]

Yes I saw the ratings of Andi's season and it was the lowest of all.  Facts are facts.....

Below are some of the facts.  If you look at the overall ratings in the 18-49 demographic you are correct that they are lower than Des'.  However, if you look at the overall number of viewers, Andi's had a little more:

Thanks for the link Doc; it contained not only the ratings for Andi's season but a link to a page with the same ratings for Des' season, although a bit more difficult to read. I compiled a table to make them comparable:

Episode	Des		Andi
	Demo	Viewers	Demo	Viewers		Difference
1	1.90	5.990	1.97	7.174		1.184
2	1.80	5.840	1.56	6.028		0.188
3	1.80	5.810	1.37	5.024		-0.786
4	1.77	5.730	1.79	6.735		1.005
5	1.82	5.890	1.71	6.503		0.613
6	1.82	5.970	1.51	6.048		0.078
7	1.83	6.100	1.55	6.476		0.376
8	1.83	6.200	1.74	6.986		0.786
9	1.83	6.170	1.71	6.907		0.737
10	1.89	6.380	1.80	7.090		0.710
11	1.95	6.610	2.00	8.000		1.390
12	2.50	8.300	2.10	8.150		-0.150
						6.131

What's interesting to me is that while Des' season did better in the target demographic than Andi's season did, Andi's season did better in overall viewership. The viewer numbers for Andi's season beat Des' every week except for weeks 3 and 12, and overall there were 6,131,000 more viewers who watched Andi's season than watched Des' season which is almost like having an entire extra episode.

The producers would look at this data a little bit differently than we might because they think the following way:

the real star of the show isn't the one handing out roses—they’re the lonely hearts competing for them.

They will view ratings as less the result of the lead and more the result of how engaged viewers are with the story and the cast competing for the roses. I think this is probably the biggest reason why we often say that we like the lead less on their own season than we did when we "met" them on their first appearance; the lead will be sacrificed to make the story lines more interesting because it's the story lines that make the season, not the lead.

[luvlady345]

EXACTLY, I was shocked when I went to look at the ratings and viewership because it was stated as fact that Andi's viewership/ratings was so low, I thought they had lost millions of viewers from what was said..... I guess it was another myth that is dispel if you look at the numbers.... I never usually look at the ratings,but since it was brought up by some I decided to check them out... The thing is the rating has been going down especially for the female lead ..... I wonder if a male lead was aired during the summer would it still fair better than the female lead?

[pander3575]

EXACTLY, I was shocked when I went to look at the ratings and viewership because it was stated as fact that Andi's viewership/ratings was so low, I thought they had lost millions of viewers from what was said.....  I guess it was another myth that is dispel if you look at the numbers....  I never usually look at the ratings,but since it was brought up by some I decided to check them out...  The thing is the rating has been going down especially for the female lead .....  I wonder if a male lead was aired during the summer would it still fair better than the female lead?

That would be interesting to know that if TB and Bette were switched would it be the same. One thing about TB when it's aired is right after the holidays and during the cold weather when most people prefer to stay indoors. Also for the viewers who love drama the guys usually don't bring as much to the show as the women. Personally I prefer looking at a bunch of guys than a bunch of catty women but then again I don't like drama and prefer a simple love story.

[Lucas15]

EXACTLY, I was shocked when I went to look at the ratings and viewership because it was stated as fact that Andi's viewership/ratings was so low, I thought they had lost millions of viewers from what was said.....  I guess it was another myth that is dispelled if you look at the numbers....  I never usually look at the ratings,but since it was brought up by some I decided to check them out...  The thing is the rating has been going down especially for the female lead .....  I wonder if a male lead was aired during the summer would it still fair better than the female lead?

I think The Bachelor would do better than The Bachelorette no matter when it would be aired, but since the summer months tend to get lower ratings anyway ABC puts the stronger programming (The Bachelor) in the winter months where there are more viewers available and the weaker program (The Bachelorette) in the summer months. As the conversation has turned to ratings I'm going to post this article again (along with it's source) because it really digs into why a male lead program works better than a female lead one and it really has nothing to do with the lead and everything to do with the cast. This article digs into topics that go way beyond just the ratings because in it are some explanations about why so many react the way so many do to both Andi and to Nick.

People Prefer The Bachelor

One ABC reality series is dipping in the ratings while the other has stayed pat, and the reasons may surprise you.

A bunch of dudes sat quietly in their suite’s living room sipping wine, as dudes do, when the perpetually scarved front-runner, salesman Nick V., finally returned from his impromptu one-on-one date with Andi. Brian broke the bronotony. “You know what, I’m not going to beat around the bush…” Then the five men laid in to him. Nick is, according to the brollective, “not here for the right reasons.” He’s a snake; a gamer who “cares more about strategy than Andi.” To which Nick replied: “We’re good friends, but we’re different people in how we handle our feelings. So…”

Thus ended the most explosive scene of this season’s intolerably tedious Bachelorette. As for why The Bachelorette is so dull, especially compared to its Bachelor counterpart, it’s complicated. But as the Bachelor’s creator, Mike Fleiss, has said, the real star of the show isn't the one handing out roses—they’re the lonely hearts competing for them. Sadly, the parade of anemic fellas just can’t compete with the ladies.

For perspective, let’s remember what happened in The Bachelor in the episode before hometowns.

By this time in Juan Pablo’s season, opera singer Sharleen was rejecting JP, and the leftover women were raging against both sl**-shamed Clare and pediatric nurse/good-girl Nikki, who in turn were both screaming at each other one moment and involved in a marathon silent treatment the next. In the previous iteration of The Bachelor, born-again virgin Sean Lowe’s season, the women were in St. Croix, which set the stage for the most epic fight in the show’s history (the one where Tierra valiantly declared, “I can’t control my eyebrow!”)

Back in 2002, while toasting the first season of their ratings horse The Bachelor, ABC producers kicked around the idea of turning the format on its head. Instead of 25 lovely ladies cavorting for the attention of a single beau, ABC would find two dozen men ready to lay their hearts (and self-respect) on the line to woo the show’s runner-up. At the time, critics were incredulous that the show would work. Sexism was mostly to blame. A columnist for Canada’s National Post summed up the general skepticism this way:

“When our bachelorette can libidinously test drive more than two dozen guys over the course of six weeks, quiz and cajole the devoted pack down to a fierce pair of spitting competitors who’d risk their last smidgen of dignity for the honor of her hand in marriage, then the double standard will officially be dead, and the casting call can begin.”

Fast-forward a decade and 10 seasons of The Bachelorette later. The country has indeed accepted that a woman can make out with, and even bed, more than one suitor at a time on national television. So it should mark a small feminist victory that The Bachelorette exists at all. Still, that doesn’t make me want to watch it. And I’m not alone.

By the time The Bachelorette first debuted in 2003, 16.7 million tuned in to witness the experiment, according to Nielsen’s ratings, crushing the more conservative boy-and-his-harem narrative on the first season of The Bachelor, which only managed to attract 10.7 million viewers. While it captured the prurient curiosity of a nation, The Bachelorette couldn’t hold on to us. Andi’s season has been the worst in terms of ratings and has so far attracted less than half the viewers Trista Sutter did in that first
season, again according to Nielsen. While The Bachelor’s viewership has remained roughly the same over 18 seasons, more than half of The Bachelorette’s fans have switched the dial since the show first started.

The issues are many. There’s the first, most obvious reason: though women might say they want a sensitive man, the type that might, oh, declare their eternal love and propose after a few dates, when that type of man presents himself live and in color, it’s not so appealing (see Kasey’s sad promise—with matching tattoo!—to “guard and protect” bachelorette Ali Fedotowsky’s heart.)

But the bigger issue at play, one that even Nick V.’s unhinged confessional sobbing can’t overcome, is that men competing for love is boring. It’s a scientific fact.

Psychologist Joyce Benenson has spent 25 years studying the different ways men and women compete. Far from the conventional wisdom that men are more competitive, Benenson argues in her new book, Warriors and Worriers, that women are just as aggressive as men—just in cleverer, more fascinating ways. In other words: It makes for better TV.

With males (human and chimpanzee), Benenson says you see “direct verbal and physical aggression—a big fight and that’s that. Shouting and screaming and it’s very loud and unpleasant, but there’s also a sense of predictability.” But, and this is where the show comes in, “because males do really cooperate very well against other groups, the intra-Community fighting is left hanging, and usually reconciled. Once they figure out the hierarchy, they generally abide by it. [Males] know where they stand and they respect that.”

“Now females do not form a hierarchy easily and there is no basic reason to cooperate,” added Benenson. “Generally they do not cooperate with unrelated individuals. They naturally take care of children, parents, relatives, but when it comes to a best friend, it’s really easy to get rid of her, as sad as that is,” she says.

Take this lack of cooperative instinct and add a competitive situation, and Benenson says you get a real conundrum. A woman, she says, avoids manlier physical altercations in an evolutionary move to protect her reproductive organs, and enable her to care for future children. “So what you get is this very subtle, very severe competition.”

“Women are basically nice,” Benenson claims. “They’re giving the impression that they want to cooperate, that they don’t want to compete. But that’s dumb, because if you want the guy or the job, then you have to compete, because otherwise you will lose. So you disguise it. And then it becomes very complicated and interesting. You smile as you quietly take somebody else’s whatever it is.”

“There are so many levels going on with the girls,” she says.

Where the congeniality all falls apart is with the introduction of a too-confident favorite—a Vienna Girardi, or Courtney Robertson, or Nikki Ferrell (there’s one every season). When this character shows up, all the women turn on her.

“The ultimate tool they use is social exclusion,” says Benenson. “That is what girls use in place of direct aggression. If someone is prettier or smarter or a better violin player, and not at the same time putting herself down or saying she’s an equal, then she’s out. Compared to men, they are terribly worried about social exclusion, and for good reason. That is what women do, from 4 years old to nursing home residents, if they find they can’t be dead even. And they find it very pleasurable.”

Not only do women exhibit more complex behaviors, but also the stakes for them in a marriage competition are much higher than they are for men, for whom age is less of a factor in reproducing. “Men have more time to figure it out,” Benenson says. “Just mathematically, the amount of time you want to invest in that first choice, it’s much more important for a woman.”

This urgency and desperation fuels the fire for The Bachelor’s contestants. A bunch of men competing for one woman—no matter how fabulous she is—just doesn’t work.

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