Sharleen Joynt & Andy Levine - Bachelor 18 - Discussion

I know this will be an unpopular opinion, but here goes anyway...

I agree exactly with what K said. It is "less than ideal." But so is this whole show. This is just one peg down from the usual "less than ideal" in my opinion.

I'm not enraged like many of you appear to be. I don't know if that's because I have finally come to that peaceful spot of not really giving a hoot anymore about the drama of this show and MF's little twisted fantasies of humiliating anyone who signs up for it. Or if deep down inside, even though it is "less than ideal" if I really think it's that bad of a twist.

I watched Byron's season and loved Byron. I never thought I would like him, but I was smitten. And, let's face it, being smitten by the lead or one of the contenders DOES make this show more palatable, at least for me.

I may watch this 'ette season and not love the 'ette who gets picked by the guys on night one, but how is that much different from most seasons when they choose a retread lead that I'm not crazy about? I still watch. And even though I hear much protestation, so will most of you. That's because of the way we die hard fans of the show approach it.

We are not content with just looking at a prettily wrapped package. We want to inspect it, analyze the angles of the scotch tape, the pattern on the paper, the weight of the box, and see if it rattles. If the lesser popular Britt gets chosen by the guys, we can still do all of that. It will just be a different package to sleuth. Right?

Listen, you sign up for this show in any way, shape, or form, and you get what you get. I'm kind of over feeling sorry for anyone who signs up to do this show. By now, it is more than clear what tptb are capable of doing. While I do think that B and K were probably blindsided by this most recent twist, it is what it is. They signed their contracts and now MF owns them. It's a risk versus benefits decision when you sign up for this show. These girls are gamblers or fools, or both (IMO).

I can see why people think B is fake. I think she is a bit fake, too. But maybe not as fake as some of you believe her to be. And that's why I am not angered that she might end up being the ette.

I think B has a certain personality type--the type that is two fold:

1) She is a very pretty girl who knows how to use her good looks to gain male attention through flirty gestures and wide eyed grins. This isn't something that B invented. It has been around since the dawn of time. It's that combination of traditional good looks and animation that draws them in. Think of all of the hottest actresses in Hollywood and they probably have the same combination.

2) She is a touchy feely emotional girl. Guys love to be touched. A hand on their knee. A touch on their shoulder. And they respond to it. She is a handsy girl. She can't keep her hands off of anyone. She was constantly holding hands with the other girls (which I think is strange personally) and snuggling up to them. It is her comfort zone, her very small personal space requirement.

So, when a girl likes a guy she tends to touch him. So, the guys will think she is into them, and any girl that is into them is 10x more attractive than the girl that they are not sure if she is into them. Hence, B's body language will win them over quickly, even on the first night. Add to that B's sweetness, her demure and Snow White-esque presence, and the guys will want to be her Prince. Guys love to be Men, and B will make them all feel like Men. And this is all going to go down on night one, probably, unless those tricky minions stack the deck in K's favor just to make B cry some more.

See, I don't see B as evil. If anyone is evil it is MF. JMHOAA.

I'm in the minority too, Mia...but then again, I usually am.

Sable wrote:

GuardianAngel wrote:IA with her. I think it's sick. They both walk on stage holding hands like little girls. It's stupid IMO. Doesn't matter what happened on Byron's season, that was 10 yrs ago.

I agree with you.  Someone on another post also brought up the point that when this was done on the bachelor, both Byron and the other guy (Jay?) were both unknowns.  Now that this franchise recycles their leads, both have a huge fan base.  Doing this 2 lead thing now sort of feels like a "jumping the shark" moment to me for this show.

Yeah, I think that might be what Sharleen is alluding to. First, the girls had to compete with each other to get Chris's attention. And, now that they are supposedly in Chris's position, they STILL have to compete with each other to get a guy's attention. Byron and Jay never had to deal with the public rejection and humiliation, and so it wasn't unfair that one had to deal with it the first night. Both girls already dealt with it, and will have to deal with it again. And, honestly, unless it's a 25-0 vote, BOTH will have to deal with it. One will get rejected, and the other will have proof that a significant portion of the guys think of her as a second choice.

chasingpavements wrote:

Sable wrote:

GuardianAngel wrote:IA with her. I think it's sick. They both walk on stage holding hands like little girls. It's stupid IMO. Doesn't matter what happened on Byron's season, that was 10 yrs ago.

I agree with you.  Someone on another post also brought up the point that when this was done on the bachelor, both Byron and the other guy (Jay?) were both unknowns.  Now that this franchise recycles their leads, both have a huge fan base.  Doing this 2 lead thing now sort of feels like a "jumping the shark" moment to me for this show.

Yeah, I think that might be what Sharleen is alluding to. First, the girls had to compete with each other to get Chris's attention. And, now that they are supposedly in Chris's position, they STILL have to compete with each other to get a guy's attention. Byron and Jay never had to deal with the public rejection and humiliation, and so it wasn't unfair that one had to deal with it the first night. Both girls already dealt with it, and will have to deal with it again. And, honestly, unless it's a 25-0 vote, BOTH will have to deal with it. One will get rejected, and the other will have proof that a significant portion of the guys think of her as a second choice.

I never would wish disappointment, rejection or humiliation on anyone, but when you sign up for this show you are naive to think it isn't in your future in some way, shape, or form. And even if you think it's not going to be YOU that is humiliated, you do know that it WILL be SOMEONE that signed up for the show that is edited poorly and made to look the fool. So, if you associate with an enterprise that revels in manipulating, coercing, and damaging people's personal reputations, I don't think you should be all that shocked that your emotions are not treated with kid gloves.

I don't think it was any less humiliating for Jay to be rejected on night one than it will be for either B or K to be rejected that first night. "Humiliation", after all, is a choice. Jay did nothing wrong on his night one. The majority of ladies just happened to get a better vibe from Byron, I guess.  It's the same crap that happens night after night in a bar. People make snap judgments about you.

This show is all about snap judgments. No lead can possibly get to know all 25 contenders well enough on night one to make an informed decision on which one they wish to marry a few weeks later. The lead goes by gut, by initial attraction and the level of ease of their interactions. Who is to say that every season of a "failed" final relationship did not have Mr or Mrs Right who got eliminated on night one, just because of a snap decision by the lead? So, my point is, it happens. It happens in real life and it happens on this show, just not typically TO the lead. However, when we do have a main contender exit early (like Brooks or Graham) then it's the same thing. Even worse for the lead who has developed feelings for the contender by that point.

On night one, how can you really feel badly about being eliminated? The lead does not even KNOW you. Same for the 'ette that gets the ax. What does that really say about that person? Nothing. It says nothing. So, no, this rejection does not necessarily have to be heartbreaking. It is all in how you deal with it. It is what it is, whether it is on a paid tv show or in a bar. C'est la vie.

Mia, thanks for another thoughtful post.  

I do however disagree.  This may be just a small example but it just struck me as so mean-spirited and that is something this gang does well.  Under the guise  of entertainment they have pulled some pretty distasteful stunts over the years.  I'm not really a Britt fan, I do like Kaitlyn better, but I feel for them both.  I think it just stinks that each thought they would have their OWN season, and now one will be sent away just like someone we never got to know, and like, and wish well.  She may be brave, and not humiliated, but I cannot help think the intent is to humiliate and call it funny.

Mia, I can honestly say that after being on the fence if I would watch this season, getting excited that it seemed like we were getting Kaitlyn (or my hope Whitney), now having men who would chose Britt over Kaitlyn, I can safely say I won't watch. I have other priorities for the summer. Now if they some how pick Kaitlyn, I will make the time, but I don't want a season of men who picked Britt, I watched the season of women who picked Byron and they had to bring in Mary to save that one. So nope I am out if it is Britt. May watch HTDs to see the possible bachelor.

But I think most will give it a chance anyway.

pavalygurl wrote:Mia, thanks for another thoughtful post.  

I do however disagree.  This may be just a small example but it just struck me as so mean-spirited and that is something this gang does well.  Under the guise  of entertainment they have pulled some pretty distasteful stunts over the years.  I'm not really a Britt fan, I do like Kaitlyn better, but I feel for them both.  I think it just stinks that each thought they would have their OWN season, and now they will be sent away just like someone we never got to know, and like, and wish well.  They may be brave, and not humiliated, but I cannot help think the intent is to humiliate and call it funny.

Well, according to Jillian, Britt never was told she would have her own show (unlike Kaitlyn). The first call that she got was "you're doing this show with Kaitlyn, the guys are going to pick between you on the first night". And, again, according to Jillian, she was really excited and confident about it. She's already planning on how she's going to send guys home during the rest of the season. That's why it's personally hard for me to feel sorry for Britt. I think it was Kaitlyn that was essentially lied to for weeks, and just had the rug pulled from under her two days ago. And, now she has to listen to everyone basically implying that Britt's going to "win" because she's more attractive. Something about that just seems unfair to me. Since Deanna's season, the lead hasn't been picked because of attractiveness. They are picked on personality, relate-ability, and whose love story the VIEWERS want to watch. Now, the power is completely taken away from the viewers and the women and placed onto the men. And, it just comes down to looks.

stuckinsc wrote:Mia, I can honestly say that after being on the fence if I would watch this season, getting excited that it seemed like we were getting Kaitlyn (or my hope Whitney), now having men who would chose Britt over Kaitlyn, I can safely say I won't watch. I have other priorities for the summer. Now if they some how pick Kaitlyn, I will make the time, but I don't want a season of men who picked Britt, I watched the season of women who picked Byron and they had to bring in Mary to save that one.  So nope I am out if it is Britt.  May watch HTDs to see the possible bachelor.

But I think most will give it a chance anyway.

Great post!  I so agree with everything that you said.  I am with you in that I won't watch if it's Britt.  You bring up an excellent point about not wanting to watch a season of men who would pick Britt over Kaitlyn.  I never even thought of that.  Now I have another reason not to watch if it's Britt.  I do get that some that don't want Britt will watch for the men and to watch to see who will be the bachelor, but I don't think I could stomach that.  Perhaps if I'm not invested in who becomes the Bachelor from Britt's season, I don't watch the Bachelor either?  There have been a few seasons that I have missed for this very reason.  I watched Jason's season, but then I didn't start watching again until Brad 2.0.  This is a very slippery slope for TPTB.  I know I am only one person, but if others feel the same way that I do and act on it, this could really come back to bite them.

To stay on topic, I loved Sharleen's Flare recap and I can't wait for her full recap of the finale. My feelings really mirror hers on this topic.

I absolutely love Sharleen, so upfront with how this show works and TPTB, go girl! Preach it.

chasingpavements wrote:

pavalygurl wrote:Mia, thanks for another thoughtful post.  

I do however disagree.  This may be just a small example but it just struck me as so mean-spirited and that is something this gang does well.  Under the guise  of entertainment they have pulled some pretty distasteful stunts over the years.  I'm not really a Britt fan, I do like Kaitlyn better, but I feel for them both.  I think it just stinks that each thought they would have their OWN season, and now they will be sent away just like someone we never got to know, and like, and wish well.  They may be brave, and not humiliated, but I cannot help think the intent is to humiliate and call it funny.

Well, according to Jillian, Britt never was told she would have her own show (unlike Kaitlyn). The first call that she got was "you're doing this show with Kaitlyn, the guys are going to pick between you on the first night". And, again, according to Jillian, she was really excited and confident about it. She's already planning on how she's going to send guys home during the rest of the season. That's why it's personally hard for me to feel sorry for Britt. I think it was Kaitlyn that was essentially lied to for weeks, and just had the rug pulled from under her two days ago. And, now she has to listen to everyone basically implying that Britt's going to "win" because she's more attractive. Something about that just seems unfair to me. Since Deanna's season, the lead hasn't been picked because of attractiveness. They are picked on personality, relate-ability, and whose love story the VIEWERS want to watch. Now, the power is completely taken away from the viewers and the women and placed onto the men. And, it just comes down to looks.

I don't care for Britt at all, but YIKES! Jillian is really throwing her friend under the bus and adding fuel to the fire with her comments. Her comments highlight exactly what the other women couldn't stand in Britt. She's already planning on how she's going to send the guys home and the gig is not even "officially" hers yet? Really? Britt's lack of humility is really astounding!

MiaHawk wrote:I know this will be an unpopular opinion, but here goes anyway...

I agree exactly with what K said. It is "less than ideal." But so is this whole show. This is just one peg down from the usual "less than ideal" in my opinion.

I'm not enraged like many of you appear to be. I don't know if that's because I have finally come to that peaceful spot of not really giving a hoot anymore about the drama of this show and MF's little twisted fantasies of humiliating anyone who signs up for it. Or if deep down inside, even though it is "less than ideal" if I really think it's that bad of a twist.

I watched Byron's season and loved Byron. I never thought I would like him, but I was smitten. And, let's face it, being smitten by the lead or one of the contenders DOES make this show more palatable, at least for me.

I may watch this 'ette season and not love the 'ette who gets picked by the guys on night one, but how is that much different from most seasons when they choose a retread lead that I'm not crazy about? I still watch. And even though I hear much protestation, so will most of you. That's because of the way we die hard fans of the show approach it.

We are not content with just looking at a prettily wrapped package. We want to inspect it, analyze the angles of the scotch tape, the pattern on the paper, the weight of the box, and see if it rattles. If the lesser popular Britt gets chosen by the guys, we can still do all of that. It will just be a different package to sleuth. Right?

Listen, you sign up for this show in any way, shape, or form, and you get what you get. I'm kind of over feeling sorry for anyone who signs up to do this show. By now, it is more than clear what tptb are capable of doing. While I do think that B and K were probably blindsided by this most recent twist, it is what it is. They signed their contracts and now MF owns them. It's a risk versus benefits decision when you sign up for this show. These girls are gamblers or fools, or both (IMO).

I can see why people think B is fake. I think she is a bit fake, too. But maybe not as fake as some of you believe her to be. And that's why I am not angered that she might end up being the ette.


1) She is a very pretty girl who knows how to use her good looks to gain male attention through flirty gestures and wide eyed grins. This isn't something that B invented. It has been around since the dawn of time.  It's that combination of traditional good looks and animation that draws them in. Think of all of the hottest actresses in Hollywood and they probably have the same combination.

2) She is a touchy feely emotional girl. Guys love to be touched. A hand on their knee. A touch on their shoulder. And they respond to it. She is a handsy girl. She can't keep her hands off of anyone. She was constantly holding hands with the other girls (which I think is strange personally) and snuggling up to them. It is her comfort zone, her very small personal space requirement.

See, I don't see B as evil. If anyone is evil it is MF. JMHOAA.  

2) She is a touchy feely emotional girl. Guys love to be touched. A hand on their knee. A touch on their shoulder. And they respond to it. She is a handsy girl. She can't keep her hands off of anyone. She was constantly holding hands with the other girls (which I think is strange personally) and snuggling up to them. It is her comfort zone, her very small personal space requirement.

So, when a girl likes a guy she tends to touch him. So, the guys will think she is into them, and any girl that is into them is 10x more attractive than the girl that they are not sure if she is into them. Hence, B's body language will win them over quickly, even on the first night.

Thanks, Mia as always for your insight. Interestingly enough, I just read this little article this morning. Being handsy matters. Alot.
https://www.yahoo.com/health/the-single-best-personality-trait-for-your-love-112602478407.html

And always try to cross the physical boundaries a little bit, says Feinstein. The boy pulling the little girl’s pigtails on the playground — while misplaced —is actually flirting, she says. The grown-up (far more effective) version: picking something off of someone’s shirt, joking teasingly with a hand on the other person’s arm, or holding hands.

I think it was Kaitlyn that was essentially lied to for weeks, and just had the rug pulled from under her two days ago.

According to Sean Lowe, they did this to Arie as well. It's been discussed in Arie's thread.