Bachelorette 7 - THE EDIT - Discussion

Coastal wrote:

wachin4fun wrote:

Reidiscool wrote:As the season winds up to it's climax I feel the need for a brain dump of my take on this season as the pieces are falling in to place for me.

Warning: my brand of Koolaid coming This is my take on the season and will no doubt be very unpopular with most readers. :hidingchair

Disclaimer: I am not in the least bit attached to either of the F2 guys. Both are hot in their own way but just not my type.

I've been thinking about the edit and doesn't anyone think it suspicious that Ben's dates of late are mirroring CL's. First they have the sad loss of a parent in common (Ben's edit has not been seen to dwell on this as CLs did). The scooter date in Taiwan (mirrors CLs portugal scooter date prior to hometowns), Sad HTD with Ben and Ash sitting on the porch (mirrors Ali and Chris in the rockers), Ben's heart to heart with his mom (mirrors CL's with his Dad), the preview of next weeks FD show Ben and Ash on a yacht and him carrying her by the pool (this so mirrors CL yacht FD with him carrying Ali out of the water). With CH's endorsement of someone we will fall in love with and Ben's hidden edit in the first three episodes it is their intention to make viewers believe that Ben is the second coming of CL. People are not buying Ben and Ash's love story because they were fooled before and still will not believe it when they have an off the charts FD next week.

The previews of Ash's sister and VO of Ash left a 100% impression that Ash picks JP (but against her family's wishes). So even when Ben and Ash heat it up in their fantasy date and she starts her bumpy ride with JP people will still believe this is all smoke and mirrors, because the previews have hinted with no uncertain doubt that JP wins in the end.

I have another take on JPs HTD (wouldn't ya know ). I think a lot of the scenes with the mother have been spliced. I think the mother gave Ash a massive grilling which accounts for Ash's facial reactions and defensive high pitched insincere squeek "Oh you are so sweet". I saw Ash's grabbing/touching reaching out at JP of the sofa as defensive body language. She certainly high tailed it out of there EARLY.

The shortness of JPs 1-1s and his HTD, his competitive edit and Ash's incessant reminders of looking for REAL and not trying to "win" her lead me to think that JP was always going to be her her F2. The Bentley crap, the less than stellar edit of JP, and Ash choosing him against her families wishes just doesn't make sense to me for a JP F1. It is just smoke and mirrors for the audience to think that Ash's picker is broken. She fell for the cad Bentley and now she's going to fall for JP, despite the edited jealousy warnings and the family disapproval.

IMO the show is getting better and going to great lengths to keep their F1 a secret. This year I believe they have executed that plan to the letter, CH, Ash and Ben included. I fully expect some more Ben spoilers in the rags come out this week.

I'm totally prepared to eat CROW (serve it up to me warm though) but for me the season's edit doesn't make sense any other way unless Benny boy is her guy.

I love thinking of new theories, but a problem I have with this theory is why was she ALL over JP during their HTD. Even if they edited it out for Ben, she was still completely gaga over JP in that episode. Unless the producers told her to be kissing him constantly. She even had both hands on him when walking down the street, not just one hand hold at one point at least - she way really holding on to him. I am fine either way, but just can't get past her saying how honest she is and it would be obvious (and watching her bluntness and honesty to the guys during the season as well) and then seeing the difference in her body language toward both men during the HTDs. But, the producers do like to mix it up, so who knows. But, if they really write their blogs also - then hard to believe she can pick Ben. I actually love how they keep changing the edits so we are on our toes - this year either it seems way too obvious or they are working hard to hide the real story and we are not sure which!

Well, think back to Chantal's edit...........she got a hot and heated physical edit..........like JP is getting now.

Look at Ashley here with Ben - arm all the way around him holding his waist which isn't usual when you're strolling arm in arm plus she seems to enjoy touching his chest. Remember when she was rubbing it in the Chaing Mai date? :giggle:



My avatar. Such a look on her face with Ben and touching his face. This is part of the shopping we didn't see.



I don't think most people even saw this pic, I know I didn't until LoveMe posted it a couple of dates ago. This especially isn't a time you'd think Ashley would have her hand on Ben's waist yet she does.

All I'm saying is we shouldn't discount what they didn't show us on Ben's date. I do think the length of time difference is something to consider. I have no idea if we've seen this before but it just seems odd.

I do think JP is final one and i'm sticking with it

Coastal wrote:Well, think back to Chantal's edit...........she got a hot and heated physical edit..........like JP is getting now.

It's been suggested that we need to view a physical connection differently depending on if we are watching The Bachelor or The Bachelorette.

For a man (I am one and not necessarily proud of this aspect of our gender - just well aware of it) a strong physical connection shouldn't be construed as meaning that we are in love with a woman or want to spend the rest of our lives with that woman - it may only mean we'd like to spend the rest of the night with her.

For a woman, a strong physical connection may exist because there is also a strong emotional connection and the physical aspect is an outpouring of deeper emotions.

allykat wrote:Sorry if this has already been discussed, but I'm wondering about the short HTD for JP. Has a F1 ever had a HTD that ended when it was still light out?

Yes, I remember it was dusk on CL's HTD.

Titou wrote:

ironcat wrote:

albean99 wrote:

KatesMom wrote:Ashley apparently did an interview with her local paper basically saying she didn't think she was a good bachelorette because she couldn't hide her feelings well, or pretend to feel things she didn't. She is quoted as saying she was 95% sure who her F1 was after the hometown dates, and she can't believe anyone watching the show DOESN'T know who her F1 is. She also said she knew early on. To me, all of that screams JP. We didn't even see Ben until the orphanage date. My feeling on all of this is what I think Jelle said on the previous page - the producers have to make a show and they have to give us a viable F2. Ben is this season's Chris L - everyone was so in love with Chris L that I think people saw things that maybe weren't there. I do see a chemistry with Ben - but is that because the producers are showing us every bit of footage they can find where the two of them were romantic? With regard to JP - the chemistry is there. The feelings are there. I think the edit the last two weeks has been the producer's throwing some doubt out there about him - trying to even the two guys up. What I see on the unspoiled boards are how many people try to make arguments - but at the end of the day it obviously comes down to who your favorite is and who you see yourself with. Best example of this I can come up with is Ed - most did not want Ed to win. But knowing what we know about Jillian, I do think Ed was the best choice FOR HER. We may love Ben; we may not like things we are being shown about JP. But at the end of the day, who is the right person for Ashley? Only she knows - and at least based on what I have seen, she has made her choice already.

Apparently they're actually going out of their way to hide the chemistry with Ben. We've seen a ton of pics of Ben & Ashley's last 2 dates that we never saw including the fun stuff from the HTD. It makes me wonder why? Maybe so we cant compare it to JP's skating date? Maybe they're trying to force us into thinking it's the Chris L edit? I think someone else talked about this earlier today.

I also wonder why Ben's getting the longer dates in comparison to JP's if it's true JP is the f1? I know the producers pick who goes on what date but why shorten the HTD for the favorite if you want this to end in a good way? Makes me think that maybe he's not really the f1 but the one they want us to think it is.

I know you're going to say it's to put doubt into JP's edit but still think it's strange that we don't see anything romantic with JP in the FD or LCD unless you count a kiss in the plane. Hiding or is there really trouble in paradise?

With all due respect, we really don't know if the footage they are not showing with Ben sizzles with any chemistry either; perhaps it shows even more of a friendship/tepid connection than we are already seeing, and the kisses are just more of those closed-mouth long pecks. CH said the footage from HTDs was carefree and fun, but he didn't say it was smoking hot.

agreed.

I noticed that 2 times when ashley asked JP if he was serious, the producers made a cut

one was when he said: what do you think (smoking hot volcano kiss on the beach)

second: picnic when he said: I dunno maybe propose on one knee

You can see clearly that ashley's head is in a complete different position and it is not a camera angle

so I think there are a lot of cuting with JP as well and I think it is because it was too obvious


ALL the show is a cut and edit play........... this is why ALL the contestants are generally upset about Fleiss and co..... remember ashley reaction when Kimmel asked her if she was angry and she said not until a few days ago.....

Yes ashley had chemistry with ben and we will see it very clearly at the fantasy date IMO..... and this is maybe why ben is now hurt. Before it was okay I like this girl (his words) but at the fantasy date, things turned a little differently. Is it because it was paradise fidji? Not sure. But all the leads do play a role there and the F2 is always the fool of the season

NOw... the question is : who was she 95% certain at the HTD?

Your answer to the bold is "hinted" in these quotes... didn't you yourself post these already? Gotta go back and check the other thread.

Roy to Jordan: Do you think she feels the same way about you as you do about her?
Jordan: I can’t tell you 100% because I don’t know if she feels that way 100%... I mean, nothing’s 100%.

OK... I'm drinking the Kool-Aid here, but...

For the record, back in episode #5, Ben said "There’s a 100% chance that Ashley will get kissed today." Does that balance the scales? No? Neither says 95% about anything.

My favorite "clues" last episode involved all the "sexy" talk:

Ashley PI: I love seeing Constantine here at the restaurant. He looks really sexy here, y’know, walking around. He’s such a stud.

Ashley PI: Ben is so sexy. The hair, the fashion, the sense of humor… he’s a winemaker. It’s so cool. Everything about him screams sexiness to me.

Ashley to Jordan (roller skating but maybe talking about something else?): Oh my goodness! Who do you think is gonna fall first? Listen, if you fall, it is not going to be sexy. I’m probably gonna fall before you do.

Gotta love our girl!

Lucas15 wrote:

Coastal wrote:Well, think back to Chantal's edit...........she got a hot and heated physical edit..........like JP is getting now.

It's been suggested that we need to view a physical connection differently depending on if we are watching The Bachelor or The Bachelorette.

For a man (I am one and not necessarily proud of this aspect of our gender - just well aware of it) a strong physical connection shouldn't be construed as meaning that we are in love with a woman or want to spend the rest of our lives with that woman - it may only mean we'd like to spend the rest of the night with her.

For a woman, a strong physical connection may exist because there is also a strong emotional connection and the physical aspect is an outpouring of deeper emotions.

Thanks for stating that fact. May not be popular, but it is what it is. BRAVO!!!! Love Ya!!

Why do they keep showing up snippits of Ashley touching Ben if he isn't F1?
First, its a dating show people. People who date touch each other. She obviously cannot marry all of them..that would be a different show all together.
Second, they need to provide a viable story. They need some drama, a love triangle, a bump in the road and a resolution in 8 weeks.
I don't see much of a difference between JPs edit, Tessa's and Ryan's. I don't see him throwing a fit like Chantal..she was a hot mess. I see him being vulnerable and communicating with Ashley. Do I think Ben is more of a contender now then he was 2 epis back, absolutley. I just don't know if it is enough. It is going to be fun to watch and see how this all pans out.

I see something with Ashley and JP that I dont' see with any of the ohter guys so for me JP is her final one and i'm sticking with it

happyntexas wrote:Thanks for stating that fact. May not be popular, but it is what it is. BRAVO!!!! Love Ya!!

Thanks Happy.

Just a slight defense of our gender. Many men might really enjoy that "rest of the night" with someone physically attractive. But we are probably less likely to consider that woman as marriage material - there's that nagging thought "If she was this "easy" for me she might be this "easy" for my best buddy and I want a wife who's faithful."

This may be why on The Bachelor the one who has the physical connection isn't the one who gets picked - only if an emotional connection develops will it switch into "wife material". At the end of the day I think both men and women want both an emotional connection and a physical connection, though we may get there via a slightly different path.

Nativenewyorker wrote:
Thank you for this post and your comments in bold! As I said, the comments above yours pretty much make my original point. Why should everyone start jumping ship, so to speak, and choose Ben over JP? It is this kind of thinking that results in so much of the anger and miscommunication. Why one versus the other? I agree with the very novel idea that one can like them both! I do not subscribe to this "either/or" philosophy. Unfortunately, this is being framed as purely a contest with only one winner. The winner is good, therefore, the loser has to be bad. It's beyond oversimplification.

I happen to like Ben, too. I just happen to like JP more. I think they are both great guys with their own unique personality and appeal. Ashley is lucky to have two great guys to choose from. I will be okay with whoever she picks in the end. I have no dislike in my heart for anyone. Also, I think this idea that JP supposedly put all the blame on his ex-girlfriend is inaccurate. He was badly hurt. That is a fact to both him and his family. However, when he spoke about this relationship with Ashley on their second 1-on-1 date in Hong Kong, he made it a point to say that he will always care for her and hope she is okay and happy. I thought that was exceptionally gracious and kind on his part. Whatever went wrong and the "why" of JP being so hurt, has never been discussed in any detail. Again people are reading way too much into what JP and his family said. Not once did they assign blame to her. Why people are reading things into what is being said, I have no idea.

Isn't it just possible that JP took the end of the relationship very badly? Maybe his heart was broken because it just didn't work out. He also told Ashley in Hong Kong, that his heart had not caught up with his head. In his head, he knew that they weren't right for each other, but in his heart he wanted it to work. So? No assigning of blame or anything! Is it so hard for people to remember what JP said about her an episode or so ago? Better to think back on that, than to misinterpret his heartbreak over the end of the relationship. People are assuming that JP is blaming her or making it her fault that he took it so badly. However, if you just listen to JP's words, then you will realize that he has assumed some responsibility for the breakup and heartache by acknowledging that he wasn't able to face the truth and let go. I have done exactly the same thing in my life and so have many others. It is human nature to hang on even in the face of a reality one doesn't want to accept.

I truly wish that people would get off JP's back and stop looking for anything and everything to find fault with him.

Ok, hopefully I did this right - trying to cut out all the previous quotes so it didn't take up a full page. And I apologize ahead of time for the long post!! I agree 100% with what you said, and I don't think it should be an either/or. But over 21 seasons, that is what happens every time. And I think it is what I was trying to say in my other post. People put themselves and their pasts into the situation and infer out, based on what happened to them. I can't tell you how many posts I read with regard to JP "putting the blame on the ex-girlfriend" this week - always followed by "that happened to me and this is what resulted from it". We don't know JP, we don't know the ex-girlfriend. Heck, we don't even know what the "issues" were that caused them to break-up. But we know what happened in our own lives and so we assume it had to be the same and JP has to be acting the same way the ex-boyfriend acted, so it has to be X. Happens every season. It is usually around HTD's that the lines seem to get drawn and people tend to get very passionate about their favorite. They see things that weren't there. I can't forget with Chris L, everyone was in love with him. There were a vocal few who were all about Roberto and saw the chemistry. But there were many of us (myself included) who fell so in love with Chris L. that we started seeing things that weren't there. We saw all this passion and all this heat, so how could it not be Chris L. He had the whole rainbow story, so how could it not be him. Roberto had the sexist father, so of course he was going to be the same and Ali should run far and fast. And yet, she let Chris go before the FRC because it wasn't there. Afterwards, they have both said they had a good friend vibe all along and the passion wasn't really there. Could have fooled all of us who watched. The producers know what they are doing - they know we will insert ourselves and see things that aren't there. They know how to give us a viable F2. I see Ben getting the Chris L. edit. I understand they cut a lot of stuff out of that date. What did they cut? Are they hiding the passion? Or are they hiding the friendship? Did they decide to focus more on the sob story so we would fall in love with him and see something that wasn't there? Same exact thing with JP.

Here's one question I do have - when Ashley was talking with JP's mom, they left the comment in about her having feelings for her son and being smitten with him. We didn't see that with any of the other guys. She talked about how sexy they were, how much she liked them and, in Ames' case, how much she wanted to keep learning about him. Why keep that line in with JP? Is it because the relationship between the two of them is too hard to hide? Or is it because they are leading us on to think it is JP?

I know many have talked about the passion with Chantal/Brad. I am glad Lucas posted what he did, because I think it is so true. I am wondering if this is closer to Merideth/Ian? She was so all about him from day 1 that they just couldn't edit it all out. Is that what is going on here?

Final thought, because I have seen others mention this - both can be argued to be getting a F2 edit. Hasn't it been said before that sometimes the edit goes more towards the producers' feelings on the potential success of the relationship (think Ed)? Maybe that's what is really going on here - not that JP isn't Ashley's F1, but that the producer's don't think, based on the whole Bentley fiasco and how much she really fell for him, that this relationship really stands a chance, because JP was originally her F2 and is now a default F1?

Nativenewyorker wrote:

JBanana wrote:

happyntexas wrote:

KatesMom wrote:

Nativenewyorker wrote:

ironcat wrote:

Reidiscool wrote:The shortness of JPs 1-1s and his HTD, his competitive edit and Ash's incessant reminders of looking for REAL and not trying to "win" her lead me to think that JP was always going to be her her F2. The Bentley crap, the less than stellar edit of JP, and Ash choosing him against her families wishes just doesn't make sense to me for a JP F1. It is just smoke and mirrors for the audience to think that Ash's picker is broken. She fell for the cad Bentley and now she's going to fall for JP, despite the edited jealousy warnings and the family disapproval.

Here's the thing though. The majority of the audience won't think Ashley's picker is broken if she chooses JP. This idea that he has gotten such a bad edit is only in the opinions of some sleuthers who analyze the edit, but it isn't scaring off the majority of viewers who aren't so alarmed by all of JP's supposed flaws. And I can already predict that in the matchup between Ash's sister and JP, the overall audience will side with JP, and it will probably only make him more endearing to them.

Comparing JP's situation with Kirsten from the Firestone season is problematic. Kirsten was a true villain that whole season, and NOBODY was rooting for her. When she finally got her comeuppance at the hands of Andrew's brother, the viewers cheered. That was exactly the edit the producers were going for. If they are trying to duplicate that reaction this season, they will have failed miserably.

I was going to give my thoughts, but then I read. your comments and realized you pretty much made my argument. I think we get into our own bubble online. It's easy to forget that the average viewer is seeing things very differently, having not been spoiled. They don't know about the edit and the splicing and dicing and scripting that is such a part of this show.

Unfortunately, JP has been made out to be something that I simply do not think he is, by some people online. Things get exaggerated and exhanced and words are parsed and analyzed to death. It's almost as though JP has to play the villain to Ben's good guy. This is the dynamic that always really bothers me. Things are broken down in terms of black and white, good versus evil, saint versus devil. It sure makes things more dramatic, but I don't think it is an accurate portrayal of the contestants. No one is all good and no one is all bad. I think the majority of the viewing audience doesn't see the F2 in this histrionic and melodramatic manner.

Others may have a different view, but on the boards where the unspoiled are talking, I have actually seen a shift this week. Ben is actually jumping out in front. His edit this week was very similar to the Chris L edit - I have heard multiple friends who don't read the boards say that they fell in love with Ben this week. In contrast, what has surprised me is how many people are not pointing at JP's jealousy last week, but at the comments he made about his ex this week. They see it as him putting all the blame for the relationship's demise on her shoulders. That, coupled with the jealousy from last week has a number of people calling JP very immature and not ready for a relationship. So while we may know that both JP and Ben are good guys - it actually does appear that to the general viewing audience there has been a shift in the last week and Ben is coming up quick, if not taking JP over for fan favorite. Now, maybe this is all the produer's hope to make Ben the fan favorite in hopes of making him the next Bachelor because Ryan was not as accepted as they hope. I honestly don't know. I just wanted to throw out there for consideration what I have seen on other boards and from people who don't read the boards, but watch the show.

I am pleased you said this. I watch the show 2 hours later than most.....so I'm always behind. But, I follow along with this board that all watch the show together. And they are completely unspoiled. Nearly 80% of them are JP huge supporters. Wouldn't jump ship to save their life. LOL However, I noticed that 30 minutes before the show was due to end, there was a massive shift. All of the sudden they were jumping ship left and right, and praising Ben. I couldn't figure it out. So, when I finally got to watch. It was during JP's hometown date when the switch occurred. And, the comments were much like you stated previously.

I don't see it that "praising Ben" = "jumping ship from JP". Since the very first episode I have been a fan of both Ben and JP.. I think a lot of people, spoiled or unspoiled, like them both. (obviously not everybody). But I praise Ben a lot, because I really like him, that doesn't mean I don't think Ashely will pick JP, or that I don't think she should.

It doesn't surprise me at all that we saw a lot of Ben love on the boards this past episode, his HTD was really touching and clearly lots of people were moved by it. But I just don't think that means a lot of people have switched to thinking he is F1, I think it's just that people really like him and said so. I am one of those people, so... I guess that's my personal take on it.

Like I said, I liked both Ben and JP from the beginning. I watched the first 3 episodes without spoilers, so that was my own preference. If I had seen Ashley falling for Ben as opposed to JP, I would have no problem picking him as F1 and rooting for him and her.. but I only see that with JP. Which doesn't mean I think Ashley and Ben have no connection... they clearly do, and she clearly cares about him a lot. Just not to the same degree, remotely, as JP.

Thank you for this post and your comments in bold! As I said, the comments above yours pretty much make my original point. Why should everyone start jumping ship, so to speak, and choose Ben over JP? It is this kind of thinking that results in so much of the anger and miscommunication. Why one versus the other? I agree with the very novel idea that one can like them both! I do not subscribe to this "either/or" philosophy. Unfortunately, this is being framed as purely a contest with only one winner. The winner is good, therefore, the loser has to be bad. It's beyond oversimplification.

I happen to like Ben, too. I just happen to like JP more. I think they are both great guys with their own unique personality and appeal. Ashley is lucky to have two great guys to choose from. I will be okay with whoever she picks in the end. I have no dislike in my heart for anyone. Also, I think this idea that JP supposedly put all the blame on his ex-girlfriend is inaccurate. He was badly hurt. That is a fact to both him and his family. However, when he spoke about this relationship with Ashley on their second 1-on-1 date in Hong Kong, he made it a point to say that he will always care for her and hope she is okay and happy. I thought that was exceptionally gracious and kind on his part. Whatever went wrong and the "why" of JP being so hurt, has never been discussed in any detail. Again people are reading way too much into what JP and his family said. Not once did they assign blame to her. Why people are reading things into what is being said, I have no idea.

Isn't it just possible that JP took the end of the relationship very badly? Maybe his heart was broken because it just didn't work out. He also told Ashley in Hong Kong, that his heart had not caught up with his head. In his head, he knew that they weren't right for each other, but in his heart he wanted it to work. So? No assigning of blame or anything! Is it so hard for people to remember what JP said about her an episode or so ago? Better to think back on that, than to misinterpret his heartbreak over the end of the relationship. People are assuming that JP is blaming her or making it her fault that he took it so badly. However, if you just listen to JP's words, then you will realize that he has assumed some responsibility for the breakup and heartache by acknowledging that he wasn't able to face the truth and let go. I have done exactly the same thing in my life and so have many others. It is human nature to hang on even in the face of a reality one doesn't want to accept.

I truly wish that people would get off JP's back and stop looking for anything and everything to find fault with him.

just PERFECT

Lets remember that on his first date at her house he said: I want to make sure she is okay and then we can move on (with us). He said a similar thing in HK when she told him the B story: She told me, I am glad she got the closure SHE needed,........... meaning I do not care... lets move on (with u)

He is this RARE kind of person who does not doubt what the person is saying and move on. And because it is rare, most think the worse that it is too good to be true blah blah blah

And this is why she can love him unconditionally because no matter how silly, serious, with human flaws.... he will love her the way she is.

Both looks like they are very open people and need to communicate their emotions. And THIS is also a sign that this couple can work ... on top of the fact that they will live far from spotlights (same comment ashley spiney said BTW)


ps: I also like Ben but unfortunately I did not get attached emotionally with him. His dad story does not stir me something special for me. He looks down on earth and nice in general but beside being what I think genuine, there is nothing more. I wish him the best far from the Hollywood spotlights and hopefully he will understand that.

Lucas15 wrote:

happyntexas wrote:Thanks for stating that fact. May not be popular, but it is what it is. BRAVO!!!! Love Ya!!

Thanks Happy.

Just a slight defense of our gender. Many men might really enjoy that "rest of the night" with someone physically attractive. But we are probably less likely to consider that woman as marriage material - there's that nagging thought "If she was this "easy" for me she might be this "easy" for my best buddy and I want a wife who's faithful."

This may be why on The Bachelor the one who has the physical connection isn't the one who gets picked - only if an emotional connection develops will it switch into "wife material". At the end of the day I think both men and women want both an emotional connection and a physical connection, though we may get there via a slightly different path.

Ding Ding Ding...you ARE the winner of "the post of the day' With Fleiss going back and forth from male to female each season, it puts us on a see-saw.