Re: The Bachelor: Women Tell All - 3/04 - Discussion Thread

[Guest]

i don't know where to post this, so i'm doing it here. I haven't watched every episode but who were all the women that got 2 one on one dates? Was it Des, Lesley M, and Ashlee? I thought the contestants the lead had the strongest feelings for got 2nd dates.

If those are the women that got one on one dates, don't you think it's odd that Catherine and even Lindsey only got 1 one on one date? I've been watching clips of Sean and he said that he fell for multiple women. That he was still undecided, even through hometown dates...I just find that weird.

[shoepie]

I liked Desiree's bangs and I love her without them too. I don't like extentions though! I am soooooo sick of them. Ashlee looks good. I would like to see her part her hair on the side for a change.

[Lucas15]

I thought the contestants the lead had the strongest feelings for got 2nd dates.

That's possibly been true but I think it may depend on how The Bachelor wants to run his show. Some bachelors might request (and be given) multiple 1-1 dates because they like a particular woman and another might request multiple dates because they have questions and want more time with certain women to get them answered.

It's a bit unusual that this season Sean had only one 1-1 date with both of his final two women which suggests that he might have had the most confidence in / least doubts about those two for some time and used second 1-1 dates to make sure he didn't make a mistake in letting someone else go earlier.

[jcrbil]

^^^^I think in Sean's case, this is true. He said as much about his choices for the St. Croix 1 on 1s.

[elyn]

I think the women who got two 1-on-1's were probably his initial favorites. During the first few weeks, his impressions changed, and Catherine and Lindsay rose into the top four. But by that point in filming maybe there wasn't time to schedule a second one-on-one for either of them?

Definitely a weird season. I think Sean knew by HTD, though, who he wanted, and once his questions were answered, he was sure.

[moonchild]

In his blog, ChrisH, said that in St Croix the 1-1 dates went to the ones that Sean still had doubts about. He usually isn't as forthcoming with important information like this, but I think the show recognizes that a lot of people are out their scratching their heads, going WTH. This isn't the norm for this show, as the lead usually chooses their F1 early on and spends a lot of time with them.

JMO, but I think Sean knew who he would date IRL after HTD's, but it wasn't until after FD's that he knew he would propose. Just 11 more days......I can't wait! Although, I have to say, I'm not loving her FRC dress.

[Lucas15]

^^^^I think in Sean's case, this is true. He said as much about his choices for the St. Croix 1 on 1s.

As moonchild also recalled from Chris Harrison's blog who said the same thing.

Normally I take blog statements with at least one grain of salt - they are probably as much a part of the "show" as any VO or ITM we see and hear. In this case though I think they are accurate because certainly this is consistent with the results.

[Starshine_16]

Sarah doesn't want to be "the victim" but IMO she acts like "the victim".

Unless you've been in her shoes you really can't say that. I have a disability not un-similar to Sarah's so I felt for her during her exit ITM. It was heartbreaking because I have been in her shoes. Guys have told me that I'm a great woman,awesome to be around but they just didn't see a future with me. That is so hard to hear and it makes you wonder if any guy will ever see past the disability and realize that the disability doesn't define you. Add to that the fact of the show (being broken up with on national TV)

[dw_a_mom]

Sarah doesn't want to be "the victim" but IMO she acts like "the victim".

Unless you've been in her shoes you really can't say that. I have a disability not un-similar to Sarah's so I felt for her during her exit ITM. It was heartbreaking because I have been in her shoes. Guys have told me that I'm a great woman,awesome to be around but they just didn't see a future with me. That is so hard to hear and it makes you wonder if any guy will ever see past the disability and realize that the disability doesn't define you. Add to that the fact of the show (being broken up with on national TV)

I guess without another frame of reference, you have no way to know what is causing men to say that so often, and so you wonder if it is the disability. But plenty of men said similar things to me and friends of mine, too; it is pretty common for women to have that experience.

[dw_a_mom]

Why do you feel that AshLee felt "completely deceived" by Sean? Do you think he said things to her (ILY, perhaps) that we just didn't see? Hope not.

There was an interview (posted today? I can't remember where) in which Ashlee said Sean had told her (presumably during their alone time) that she had no reason to worry. I think that might be it.

AshLee in an ITM interview after the rose ceremony where Lesley was let go, said, " This rose to me tells me I CAN trust. I can't describe the overwhelming love that I have for him. This is my husband. And, love DOES conquer all.

Then on her HTD while sitting out in a field in another ITM, she says, " I stepped out of my comfort zone and I trust this man and he has told me to trust him, that he is going to be the man to protect my heart.

Then we are given a shot of Sean telling AshLee, " You should feel pretty confident in what we have."

I know that had to be what he was feeling at the time and things changed for him. But at the same time, I can see why she feels betrayed and he continued to reassure her on their FD.

I think also that AshLee got the first rose at the F4 rose ceremony, so that probably gave her reassurance/confidence going into the fantasy dates episode.

For the most part, AshLee was leading herself on, IMO. Sean was just along for her ride.

But, I rewatched the FD episode last night. In the FS, Sean says to AshLee "I felt confident, even way back then, that this [relationship] was going to work out." IMO that's above and beyond what he needed to say to AshLee and crosses the bounds into "leading her on". I'm sure there was more said off-camera that she could point out.

If SAsh's was the 1st FD/FS filmed, and if it's true that Sean was seriously considering letting go Catherine at HTD/F4, then in the moment Sean may have genuinely considered AshLee to be his F1 during their FD/FS date, or perhaps his fallback F1 if his upcoming FD/FS date with Catherine wasn't going to work out. And once he decided to take Catherine along to the FRC, he probably decided to spare AshLee an FRC dumping by dumping her at F3. So, in a way, AshLee might actually have been Sean's F2 in his heart, since he obviously didn't give Lindsay that same care and consideration (assuming he was certain that Cat was his F1 by then, per his convo with Chris H).

My 2 cents.

I just want to point out that the highlighted part could work both ways. The problem with a show like this is that there is so much footage and we only get to see a tiny, tiny, tiny portion of it...the parts that only fit with the story the producers want to show us. There could just as well be things that were said that another person would have understood to mean that feelings had changed, you are not the one. They want us to think that Sean broke her heart and it would be hard to do that if they showed him hinting that she is not the one.

In this circumstance several things came into play...Sean's very sincerity and attempts to remain open to all the ladies, his genuine compassion, plus his awkwardness when trying to let someone down while maintaining the premise of the show; producers desire for drama; and AshLee's focus on someone healing her blinded her to the regular signals that many would read as caution, go slow. She misinterpreted what Sean wanted...her no fun approach, and she paid no attention to his body language during that last date...his hands down when kissing her on that beach... a definate no no. Despite this, I'm still not sure that she didn't in some part of her brain suspect what was to come. It is hard to tell because of editing, but, to me she already had that icy cold stare before he even started handing out the roses, indicating that she suspected something was up.

Re: Bolded I think I would be thinking why is he so tormented......this should be a no brainer if he meant what he said, unless of course he was saying the same things to the others. Also, if the ladies don't know that the producers choose the order that the roses are handed out, not Sean, she might have been thinking that since Lindsay got the first rose, she might have taken over the #1 spot. We don't know what was said in the FS and we hadn't seen her again since their time together there, so he might have been dropping little hints to her that he had a change in feelings, thinking it might make it easier on her. I totally agree, she was so into the idea of Sean and marriage that she missed the changes in his body language which were very apparent to us.

This is just such a different show than what we usually have. First of all a Bachelor that actually wants to find the love of his life and did give everyone a chance. I think that Sean, throughout this journey, did change his way of thinking. It appeared that he came into it with a checklist that he was using to come to his final decision. And the frontrunners seemed to meet his checklist. He appeared to be interested in Catherine from the very first night, but he thought at first that she didn't have any romantic feelings towards him. Once they got past that hurdle, then he began to evaluate their lifestyles and how well their thoughts for the future meshed. The HTD was crucial for this. I think he knew he was falling for her after HT's, but he still had questions about whether they were in the same place in their lives at the same time. I think there was no way she was on the chopping block at HT's. He might not have known that she was the ONE for him for the rest of his life, but he wasn't ready to let her go without finding out. The FD was critical because he found out that they had much more in common than he had previously thought and found out that she was ready for commitment. His body language towards the frontrunners started to change in St. Croix. About St Croix, ChrisH said that the ones he still had doubts about were the the ones that had 1-1 dates. That means that even at that time, he had doubts about AshLee. On the group date, Lindsay and Catherine seemed to be jealous that Sean focused most of his attention on Des, but I think he was having doubts about her as well, and wanted to spend more time with her for that reason.

At the end of the day, I think that beyond physical attraction, it came down to someone that is adventurous, that will challenge him. Someone that he feels comfortable with, no matter what the situation. That allows him to be himself and brings out the inner nerd in him. And he discovered that he didn't have to have his checklist met (as in be a female version of him) but it was OK to be with someone that complements his personality and life. If things had not worked out with Catherine, I don't think he would have proposed to anyone.

Well said and my thoughts exactly. In one of the other threads I express something similar. His original checklist seemed to focus on faith, morals, intelligence, sweetness and humour. AshLee had all of those other than the humour. But, Sean is also, easy going, fun loving, adventurous...AshLee...clearly not. This part I think of as personality type vs. the first part which seemed to focus more on similar background. AshLee meshed with him on background, not so much on personality. Catherine was the opposite...different background/lifestyle, but similar temperaments/personalities. I think it took him a bit to figure that out...exactly as you described it. Based on what we have learned, I really think they could be a good match...given that they are both committed. Their similarities could keep them grounded, but, their differences could ensure that things never get boring.

I feel like Sean set himself up by trying too hard to be encouraging and reassuring to the women. It seemed like he was always trying to avoid drama and difficult conversations, but when you do that, you tend to end up digging things deeper. Assuming I am right (since this is edited TV, who really knows), I hope that one lesson he'll take away from all this will be that sometimes being the nice guy makes you the bad guy, and it is better to be more straight forward with the conflicts in your mind. Which is hard when you have a show to do, but the lines he gave really were not the right ones to stick to.

[shoepie]

Why do you feel that AshLee felt "completely deceived" by Sean? Do you think he said things to her (ILY, perhaps) that we just didn't see? Hope not.

There was an interview (posted today? I can't remember where) in which Ashlee said Sean had told her (presumably during their alone time) that she had no reason to worry. I think that might be it.

AshLee in an ITM interview after the rose ceremony where Lesley was let go, said, " This rose to me tells me I CAN trust. I can't describe the overwhelming love that I have for him. This is my husband. And, love DOES conquer all.

Then on her HTD while sitting out in a field in another ITM, she says, " I stepped out of my comfort zone and I trust this man and he has told me to trust him, that he is going to be the man to protect my heart.

Then we are given a shot of Sean telling AshLee, " You should feel pretty confident in what we have."

I know that had to be what he was feeling at the time and things changed for him. But at the same time, I can see why she feels betrayed and he continued to reassure her on their FD.

I think also that AshLee got the first rose at the F4 rose ceremony, so that probably gave her reassurance/confidence going into the fantasy dates episode.

For the most part, AshLee was leading herself on, IMO. Sean was just along for her ride.

But, I rewatched the FD episode last night. In the FS, Sean says to AshLee "I felt confident, even way back then, that this [relationship] was going to work out." IMO that's above and beyond what he needed to say to AshLee and crosses the bounds into "leading her on". I'm sure there was more said off-camera that she could point out.

If SAsh's was the 1st FD/FS filmed, and if it's true that Sean was seriously considering letting go Catherine at HTD/F4, then in the moment Sean may have genuinely considered AshLee to be his F1 during their FD/FS date, or perhaps his fallback F1 if his upcoming FD/FS date with Catherine wasn't going to work out. And once he decided to take Catherine along to the FRC, he probably decided to spare AshLee an FRC dumping by dumping her at F3. So, in a way, AshLee might actually have been Sean's F2 in his heart, since he obviously didn't give Lindsay that same care and consideration (assuming he was certain that Cat was his F1 by then, per his convo with Chris H).

My 2 cents.

I just want to point out that the highlighted part could work both ways. The problem with a show like this is that there is so much footage and we only get to see a tiny, tiny, tiny portion of it...the parts that only fit with the story the producers want to show us. There could just as well be things that were said that another person would have understood to mean that feelings had changed, you are not the one. They want us to think that Sean broke her heart and it would be hard to do that if they showed him hinting that she is not the one.

In this circumstance several things came into play...Sean's very sincerity and attempts to remain open to all the ladies, his genuine compassion, plus his awkwardness when trying to let someone down while maintaining the premise of the show; producers desire for drama; and AshLee's focus on someone healing her blinded her to the regular signals that many would read as caution, go slow. She misinterpreted what Sean wanted...her no fun approach, and she paid no attention to his body language during that last date...his hands down when kissing her on that beach... a definate no no. Despite this, I'm still not sure that she didn't in some part of her brain suspect what was to come. It is hard to tell because of editing, but, to me she already had that icy cold stare before he even started handing out the roses, indicating that she suspected something was up.

Re: Bolded I think I would be thinking why is he so tormented......this should be a no brainer if he meant what he said, unless of course he was saying the same things to the others. Also, if the ladies don't know that the producers choose the order that the roses are handed out, not Sean, she might have been thinking that since Lindsay got the first rose, she might have taken over the #1 spot. We don't know what was said in the FS and we hadn't seen her again since their time together there, so he might have been dropping little hints to her that he had a change in feelings, thinking it might make it easier on her. I totally agree, she was so into the idea of Sean and marriage that she missed the changes in his body language which were very apparent to us.

This is just such a different show than what we usually have. First of all a Bachelor that actually wants to find the love of his life and did give everyone a chance. I think that Sean, throughout this journey, did change his way of thinking. It appeared that he came into it with a checklist that he was using to come to his final decision. And the frontrunners seemed to meet his checklist. He appeared to be interested in Catherine from the very first night, but he thought at first that she didn't have any romantic feelings towards him. Once they got past that hurdle, then he began to evaluate their lifestyles and how well their thoughts for the future meshed. The HTD was crucial for this. I think he knew he was falling for her after HT's, but he still had questions about whether they were in the same place in their lives at the same time. I think there was no way she was on the chopping block at HT's. He might not have known that she was the ONE for him for the rest of his life, but he wasn't ready to let her go without finding out. The FD was critical because he found out that they had much more in common than he had previously thought and found out that she was ready for commitment. His body language towards the frontrunners started to change in St. Croix. About St Croix, ChrisH said that the ones he still had doubts about were the the ones that had 1-1 dates. That means that even at that time, he had doubts about AshLee. On the group date, Lindsay and Catherine seemed to be jealous that Sean focused most of his attention on Des, but I think he was having doubts about her as well, and wanted to spend more time with her for that reason.

At the end of the day, I think that beyond physical attraction, it came down to someone that is adventurous, that will challenge him. Someone that he feels comfortable with, no matter what the situation. That allows him to be himself and brings out the inner nerd in him. And he discovered that he didn't have to have his checklist met (as in be a female version of him) but it was OK to be with someone that complements his personality and life. If things had not worked out with Catherine, I don't think he would have proposed to anyone.

Well said and my thoughts exactly. In one of the other threads I express something similar. His original checklist seemed to focus on faith, morals, intelligence, sweetness and humour. AshLee had all of those other than the humour. But, Sean is also, easy going, fun loving, adventurous...AshLee...clearly not. This part I think of as personality type vs. the first part which seemed to focus more on similar background. AshLee meshed with him on background, not so much on personality. Catherine was the opposite...different background/lifestyle, but similar temperaments/personalities. I think it took him a bit to figure that out...exactly as you described it. Based on what we have learned, I really think they could be a good match...given that they are both committed. Their similarities could keep them grounded, but, their differences could ensure that things never get boring.

I feel like Sean set himself up by trying too hard to be encouraging and reassuring to the women. It seemed like he was always trying to avoid drama and difficult conversations, but when you do that, you tend to end up digging things deeper. Assuming I am right (since this is edited TV, who really knows), I hope that one lesson he'll take away from all this will be that sometimes being the nice guy makes you the bad guy, and it is better to be more straight forward with the conflicts in your mind. Which is hard when you have a show to do, but the lines he gave really were not the right ones to stick to.

Good posts, all of you!


This is getting long. I will make comments in a new post.

[momoftrips]

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